79-04 - Fox Chase PUD pt 14e
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1 STATE OF MINNESOTA DISTRICT COURT
2 COUNTY OF CARVER FIRST JUDICIAL DISTRICT
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4 Derrick Land Company, a
Minnesota corporation,
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Plaintiff,
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VS.
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City of Chanhassen, a
s Municipal corporation; and
Thomas Hamilton, Clark Horn,
9 Patricia Swenson, Dale Geving,
John Neveaux, and Carol
10 Watson,
11 Defendants.
File No. 18149
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13 DEPOSITION OF PATRICIA SWENSON, taken
14 pursuant to Notice and Agreement of Counsel, under the Rules
15 of Civil Procedure for the District Courts of Minnesota, com.-
16 mencing at about the hour of 3:00 o'clock p.m., June 2, 1983,
17 at the Chanhassen City Hall, Chanhassen, Minnescta, before
is ^ � 4 N +- Public in and for the County of
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Jeffrey U. ,e
_e...r, a o„ary
Scott and State of Minnesota.
APPEARANCES:
CHRISTOPHER J. DIETZEN, Esq., of LARKIN,
HOFFMAN, DALY AND LINDGREN, 1500 Northwestern Financi
Center, 7900 Xerxes Avenue South, Minneapolis, Minne••
so:,a 55431, appeared on behalf of the Plaintiff;
ROGER N. KNUTSON, Esq., of GRANNIS,
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Rcgi.stered Pro esswizal RrportE rs
747 Midland Bank Building
4.� •..�
.,.. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
Phone (612) 338.3530�
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GRANNIS, CAMPBELL AND FARRELL, 403 Northwestern Bank
Building, South St. Paul, Minnesota 55075, appeared on
behalf of the Defendants;
ALSO APPEARING:
Kurt Laughinghouse.
PATRICIA SWENSON,
witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined
and testified as follows:
EXAMINATION:
BY MR. DIETZEN:
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Would you state your full name and address please?
Yes. Patricia Swenson, 9015 Lake Riley Boulevard,
Chaska, Minnesota.
And, what is your business or occupation?
I'm basically a housewife. I have a part-time job.
And, you are a member of the City Council of the City
of Chanhassen?
That. is correct.
01cay. . And, what -- over what period of time have yap,
been on the City Council?
S was appointed -- it would have been, I guess --- let
aye think now. There had been a year served. What
would the date be? This was three years before the
last election. What was that; January 1980.
When was the last election?
- ' HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Pt-gistered I'rofrssiuna] Reporters
„ 747 Midland Bank Building
Minneapolis. Minnesota 65401
Phone 1612) 338 ti530 vt¢4ti 4
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MR. LAUGHINGHOUSE: Last November.
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q November of 182?
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A Yes, November of 182. So, it would have been three
years before that.
Q Okay. Who appointed you? i
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A The City Council.
Q Who did you replace?
A A man by the name of Richard Mathews.
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Q All right. So, you've been on the, City Council since
sometime in 1979 to the present date; does that sound j
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It seems to me it was the first of 1980. 1 would say
in that period; so, it would be -- i
Have you previously been on the Council, or Planning
Commission?
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Planning Commission. j
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Okay, Whe:l were you on the Planning Commission?
The fall. of 178,
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Okay. You are one of the named Defendants in this
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lawsuit; correct?
So I've been told.
All right, Going back in history, when did you first
become aware of Derrick's proposal to develop the
property on Lotus Lake that's the subject matter of
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
i
Registered 1',ofessional RcPor(irs E
747 Midland Sank Building 'q��11` �
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Minneapolis. Minnesota 55401 v°'d���
Phone (6121 338 3530 19
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this lawsuit?
I have no idea of the exact date.
Okay. Can you tell us how it first came to your
attention?
It would've had to be through the Planning Commission.
All right. And, can you tell me generally your in-
volvement with this project when you were on the
Planning Commission?
I don't understand your question. i
Okay. Were you did you vote on -the Iproposal when
it wass before the Planning Commission?
I would imagine that I would have had to make a
recommendation to the City Council, but I have no
idea what the program was at the time. �
Okay, Were you on the City Council in April. of 1980
when this matter was reviewed by the City Council? 1�
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yes. i
All right. And, do you recall the meeting in April. of
1980 where; the City Council granted preliminary
approval for the 52-lot subdivision, and P.R.D. plan
subject to certain conditions?
I remember the -- I don't remember the details.
You generally recall that coming before the City
Counril?
Yes.
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
kt'hrsMred Profcssional Reporter.:
,.,.,. 747 Midland Bank Building ,[,
ve
-Minneapo6c, Minnesota 55401 St` ., .P
Phone (612) 338-3530 rezc"� v
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And that action taken?
What was the date?
That was April 7th of 1980.
Well, I'm assuming that there are minutes to document
that?
Yes, there are minutes for that specific date. Do you
recall having any --- Well, strike that. Let me go
back. There is also a City Council meeting September
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21, 1980 where the City Council granted final develop-
ment plan approval subject to staff recommendations;
do you repall that action in that meeting?
The date doesn't ring a bell.
Okay. Do you recall subsequent Council meetings in
lg$z and 1982 where this project was discussed? �
I would imagine that there were meetings. I don't
remember any of them offhand. I mean, what the dates
were.
Q Okay. Do you have a recollection as to the discussion.
that occurred at those meetings and voting on the
project over that period of time?
A I remember activity on the project.
Q All right. Why don't you tell me what you recall?
A Oh; my dear, I would be very happy to have you jar my
recollection with any documents that you have, but
this has covered such a vast period of time, I don't
' HERBERT E. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
� I lirhiste'red Profe'ssiutial PePoriers
747 Midland bank Buiidiny
Minn( p e 55491
Phone (612) 33.8 3530
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feel that any recollection that I have would be
accurate.
Q Okay. I'll show you the City Council minutes of
April 7th of 1980 with respect to the project, and,
askif you would review those minutes.
A Okay. (Witness reviewing document.)
Q Does that refresh your memory as to what occurred on
that date, April of 1980?
A No. I can only remember the things to this effect.
That's three years ago.
Q Okay. Well, if you can't remember, that's an appropri-
ate answer. -
A I understand. I'm trying to be cooperative, and I'm
Just really ---
Q Okay. Why don't you turn: to the City Council minutes
of July 21, 1980.
A (Witness reading minutes.) Yes. I don't remember
the --
i�1,. KNUTSON: Mrs. Swenson, there is no
question before you.
THE WITNESS: I beg your pardon.
BY M.R. DIETZEN:
Q Does that refresh your memory as to what occurred at
that time?
A Again, only in the -- in having read the minutes here.
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
i Rigislered 1'rofessionaI Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building ` ►
!; Minneapolis. Minnesota 55401�.;� Y
Phone (612) 338-353+) �
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Q Okay. So, the minutes would constitute your only
recollection of what occurred on that date; is that
right?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Let's go to the next Council meeting of April
6th, 1981, and let's go to a different book here.
Here we go.
A What was the date, sir?
Q The date was April 6th.
A (Witness reading rr1nutes.)
Q Have you reviewed those minutes?
A Yes.
Q Do you have any recollection, and independent recol-
lection as to what occurred on that date before the
City Council?
A here again, just what we have, that the request for
a changes was -- or changes were made, and that it was
--- that we couldn't. But, this would be standard
whether it was this or anything else
Q Do these minutes constitute your only recollection as
to what occurred on that date?
A Yes.
A, So I'm clear, your only recollection is iwhat's con-
tained in these minutes?
A 'What's right.
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES �
��� li_'k:.iic're(1 I'ru/i'ssiral I{r�„r�! rs �
747 Midland Bunk Building � p
•• •• ��i!�neaot�lis. Minnesct3 5'i4p1
Phone �61 2) 338-3530 ` �
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You don't recall anything else occurring?
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No, I don't.
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All right. Let's go to May 4th, 1981.
(Witness reading minutes.)
Okay. Have you had an opportunity to review those
minutes?
Yes, I have.
Do you have any -- do those minutes refresh your
recollection as to what occurred on that.date?
To my recollection, I would say that they reflect
pretty much what happened.
Do you recall anything else occurring that's not con-
tained in the minutes?
No, I do not.
Do you have any other memory as to what happened on
that date?
No. !�
So, your only memory is what's set forth in these �
rr-nutes?
That is correct.
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Okay. Let's go to June 1 of 181?
Yes. (Witness reading minutes.)
Have you had an opportunity to review those minutes?
Yes.
And, do you have any other recollection of what
�1lkj HERBERT L PETERSOIN & ASSOCIATES
Rt.f;r.stered Pr,)jossionai Reporters t
747 Midland Bank cL111E4ding
Minneapolis, Mir.nesa;e 55401
Phone (612) 338 ?530 [ '
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occurred other than what is set forth in those minutes?
No, I do not.
Okay. Let's go to July 20th, 1981.
(Witness reading minutes.)
Have you reviewed those minutes?
Yes, I have.
And, do they reflect your recollection of ghat occurred
on that date?
They seem to. I'm not really clear on this one.
Okay. Could you explain what you mean'by that?
Only that I do not recall the conversation specifically
as it is. I don't have any change to it, I just
didn't recall it until I had read it.
Okay. Do you have any other recollection of what
occurred on that date?
Uh-uh,
So, this would represent your total recollection of
what occurred':
Uh-huh.
Is that right?
Yes.
Okay. Let's go to the next one, which is August 13th,
I think it's on the last page of those minutes. It's
just a real short item.
Oh, here it is. (Witness reading minutes.)
SON & s
HERBERT L. PETERASSOCIATES _
Registered Nofessional Reporters
i' 747 Midland Bank Buddin
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 53
Phone (6121 378-3530 e4
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Q Any other recollection other than what is set forth
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in the minutes for that date?
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A No.
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Q The next one is April 5th of 1982. It's on the last
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page of those minutes, and it's a small item.
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A (Witness reading minutes.)
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Q Do you recall anything else occurring other than what
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is set forth in the minutes for that date, April 5th?
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A Uh-uh.
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Q All right, Would you go to the next meeting, which
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wculd be April 26th of 1982; and I think it starts on
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page 4. I►m not sure.
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A (`Fitness reading minutes.)
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Q Have you reviewed those minutes?
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A yes, I have.
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Q And, do they reflect your recollection of what occurred
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at the Council meeting of April 26th, 1982?
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A Yes, sir; they do.
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Q Do you have any other recollection of what occurred
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on that date?
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A No. sir.
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Q Now, during the course of this period of the Council
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meetings regarding this proposal did ,. you attend any
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meetings with any of the neighbors?
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A Yes, air.
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES F-
Registered Professional Reporters I
747 Midland Bank Building g
i `• Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
Phone (612) 338-3530 i°
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And, were you involved in any discussions with any of
the neighbors that were concerned about this project?
I attended a meeting that was held in the old Instant
Web building, wherein they had drafted a different
plat, or an outline of the plat; but, I was in a hurry
to attend -- was that the same date? I don't remember
the date. I don't remember the date, but I did attend
a meeting, and did see a draft of a different plan.
Who was present at that meeting?
I have no idea specifically. I mean, are you --
Okay. Well, were any -- was anyone from Derrick there?
Not that I can recall.
Was Kathy Schwartz there?
She may have been. I do not recall.
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Was Frank Beddor there?
Yes.
And, who prepared this draft?
The draft
Yes,. that:. you just referred to? i
I'm not sure it was a draft. It was more of a plan.
Okay. Who prepared the plan?
I really don't know.
And, what was the nature of the discussion over the
period of time that you were there?
Well, I'm not sure I would call it a discussion. It
st HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
�4 � !i.•�t:;E�'r'rd /'rn�i•s3iU11t:( Rrpt�rtir:
747 Midland Bank 6widing
;Finn.fiupuiis. y!"
Phone 1612) 338 353u
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was just sort of an exposure, or the suggestion that
this might be an alternative plat. Looking at it was
strictly an informative thing. I mean, as far as I'm
concerned. I feel it part of my job to keep an open
eye on anything that's available.
Who was presenting that plan at that meeting?
I'm not entirely sure that there was any -- at least
when I was there, that there was anybody that was
specifically pointing out anything. The map was on
the wall.
Who invited you to the meeting?
I don't remember if it was specifically an individual
or a group.
@ Were any of the other Council members present at that?
MR. KNUTSON: You've assumed that she was
on the Council at the time.
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q Were you on the Council at the time of the. meeting?
A Yes s I was.
Q All right. Was any other Council members present?
A The Mayor was there.
Q Okay. Arid, that Mayor was Tom Hamilton?
A That's correct.
n Did you have any discussion with him at that time?
A No, sir.
920' " HERBERT L PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
fie gi,ctercil R,•purrcr:
747 Midland Bank Building 1
� Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
Phone 1.6121 338-3530
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Q Did you talk to him at all?
A Not there. I should say not that I can recall.
Q Okay. Were any of the other Council members present?
A Not that I can recall.
Q Anyone from City staff there?
A I don't recall.
Q Anyone from the Planning Commission there?
A I have no recollection.
Q All right. As I understand it so far, you came to
this gathering, you saw a plan on -the wall, and you
don't recall there being any specific conversation,
you looked at -it and you had to leave early?
A Th-at 's correct,,
There was no presentation during the time that you }
were there? i
A To the best of my recollection, no. I
Q Okay. Do you recall talking to anyone while you were
there?
A Well, I'm sure I must have; but, I can't remember any
specific conversation.
Q All right. . Have we covered everything that you recall
at that meeting?
A Well, let me think --- yes.
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Q Okay. Any other meetings or gatherings that you
attended?
° �zt�'1;t HERBERT L. PETERSON- & ASSOCIATES
R:'gzstcrcd 14-,j'c,csic�tet Reporters
�. 747 Midland Btnk Building
nneapolis, Minnesota: 5540'
Phone (672) 338-3530
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MR. KNUTSON: Other than City Council,
Planning Commission meetings?
BY MR, DIETZEN:
Q Yes?
A No, sir.
Q Did you have any discussions with this project, or
about this project with any other City Council members?
A Not to my recollection.
Q Do you recall having any conversations with Tom
Hamilton with respect to this project?
A Not to my recollection.
Q Do you recall having any meetings with Roger Derrick,
the developer?
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Yes.
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Q Al? right. When do you recall, or what do you recall
in that regard?
A I recall that it followed a meeting. Mr. Derrick
requested to talk to me, and I said "fine". And, it
was kind of noisy. It was downstairs, I believe it
was after the Corp of Engineer meeting; but, I'm not
sure of that. And, we came upstairs, and Mr. Hamilton
-- Mayor Hamilton and myself and Mr. Derrick had a
meeting. And, Mr. Derrick asked us if there was any
possibility of expediting the project, and we explained
to him that it would have to go through the regular
< HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
t J RtWiste•red 1'ro fessiunal Rez orl r,s
747 Midland Bank Buiidiny t
Nlinneapolis, Minnesota 55401 � ��U y A
Phone 1612) 33? 3530 v 1=
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process, and there was nothing we coul
Regular process, referring to the --
Standard procedure.
-- City Council?
The standard procedure of the City.
Okay. What is the standard procedure l
I cannot remember what the specifics were at that
particular point; but, there were -- I can't really
answer that, because I don't know to which ones we
were particularly referring.
Was there anyone else present at that meeting?
No, sir.
When you were talking about procedures, is it possible
you were referring to the Corp of Engineer process,
or the permit application?
That may have been involved.
All right. Do you recall any other meetings with the
developer, or anyone from the staff of Derrick?
Notthat I can recall.
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Do you have any specialized training, or experience in
environmental matters?
No, Sir.
Did you ever go out to view the property?
Yes, sir.
Do you recall when that was, and what you did?
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
WgI-s(e're'd 1'rofessional Reporter.,
747 Midland Bank Building
4 7'
Minneapolis, Minnesota 554v1v�Ny"
Phone (612) 338-353C
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A No, sir; because I went out there several times.
Q Do you recall reviewing any documentation supplied to
you by the City on environmental, or wetland issues
regarding this project?
A Mr. Dietzen, as you know, there is voluminous copies
of that, and I have absolutely no idea of which came
from where, or what. I remember reading a great deal
of documentation about it, but I don't remember from
what source it was.
Q Do you recall reviewing documents,. or reports, letters,
or whatever regarding wetlands?
A Again, I can't recall that it was specifically for -
any that, -- we have a lot of this that comps through.
Q All r' ght . Well, is there anything that sticks ir. your
mind with respect to this proj eet, or is this Just
one of many, and your recollection is vague and hazy
about this ore?
A I'm not sire I know how to answer that. I'm not sure
thatit's vague and hazy. There are a lot of projects
that go through, and one doesn't really keep then -- at
least I don't keep them categorized in my head.
Q Certainly. I'm just trying to get an understanding in
my orn mind as to whether you have any specific recol-
lection of any aspect of this particular proposal or
not. So far we've covered the City Council meetings.
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Rcgishcred Professional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 d y�.""rt i t
Phone (6 S 2) 328-3530 t'kF
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You indicated that you have no other recollection.
other than what's contained in the minutes?
That's correct.
And, we've covered a neighborhood meeting that your
attendance was very short and brief?
That's correct.
We've covered a meeting with Roger Derrick, yourself
and the Mayor after either a City Council meeting,
or a Corp of Engineers; and is there anything else
that you recall about this process that we have not
already covered?
I can't think -of anything that isn't covered in the
minutes that we haven't covered.
Do you maintain --- I'm sorry, did you finish?
Yes.
Do you have your own file that contains documents that
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You've received from the City regarding this pro jeciU i
It's here. (Witness indicating.) f�
Do you have your own personal file that you have at !
hor-nF ?
Nothing that isn't here.
MR. LAUGHINGHOUSE: This is what you
brought?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. LAUGHINGHOUSE: This is different
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES --- � --
krhi.;trrcd Projessiona Feporters
747 Midland Bank Building
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.,.'a !Minneapolis, Minnyac•a 5540'
Phone (61, 2) 338-3530 r
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1 from the City's documents.
2 BY MR. DIETZEN:
3 Q Oh, you brought some material here today?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Okay. Y see May I it,
please?
6 A You certainly may.
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MR. KNUTSON: Mr. Dietzen, I have re-
3 viewed these materials, and I have removed
9 certain items that we think are attorney/client
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privilege. There are letters from the City
11 Attorney to the Council.
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MR. DIETZEN: All r1eht_
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BY
MR. DIETZEN:
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The documents that I've been given are documents that
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are part of your own personal file on this matter;
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is that correct?
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(Witness :nodding.) I
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01, ay .
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PAIR. LAUGHINGHOUSE: Should we go off the
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record for a moment.
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(Discussion off the record.)
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PAR. DIETZEN:
23 ��BY
Q
Directing your attention to a memo of February 14, 1983
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an attachment on page 11, there are some handwritten
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notes -there; can you tell me whether those are your
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
11reistered 1 rr)%rss;�rci Rrp,:rter
747 !Midland Bank Budding
tv7inneapolis, Minnoscra 55401
Phone (612) 338 3530
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notes?
A Yes, they are.
Q Do you know what those notes relate to?
A They relate to my concern with dockage in that area;.
and -- do I have a question?
Q Yes. My question was: do you know what those notes
relate to?
A Yes. They would relate to item number 502 of the
conservation easement, section A: placement and
direction of building structures and docks and walk-
ways, except as may be permitted by section 503 there-
of. And then 503 was left open, and these were my
i
feelings on what might be appropriate. You know, that
would have been try feeling as to 503.
Q Well, you've got -- for the record, you've got one,
it says: two boats per dock --
A Well, I suppose these are just items. Yes, two boats.
I don't know that the one and two; it's just maybe -- i
Q Okay. I just
--
A I don't think this had any reference back to anything
else.
Q Okay. But, the second entry you have there is "no
dock may" --
A Cause encroachment on the existing wetland.
Q Okay. And, the third one is: docks may not be more
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Rcgistrrvd 1-Ofcssional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building
Minneapolis, Mhinescia 55401"
Phone (612) 338 3530 v{at=r,y
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than four feet wide. No --
A T.
Q -- T or cross -sections will be permitted?
A Yes.
Q Those were some of the things you were concerned about
as far as the docks; is that it?
A Well, as I would put this together, starting with
this --
Q Okay.
A -- is that this -- this would refer back. T reiterate
to item A of 502.
Q Okay.
A Which refers to 503.
Q 01c ay
A 503 uras bland, when l received it. These were my
thoughts on what might be contained in 503.
Q 1 see, You don't have any entry there as far as
nu-mber of docks?
A No, except that -- well, okay. Let's leave it at that.
Q Was there some feeling on your part that a specific
number of docks would be acceptable?
1? Yes .
Q What was that?
A Three.
Q Why was that?
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
ke'r;islcred I rufc'sswrto( Reporters I
747 Midland Bank Budding
' Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
Phone (612) 338 3530 `sway
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A Because that -- beyond that extension north would be
the encroachment on the wetlands.
Q Now, directing your attention to a memo of June 1 of
1981, there are some notes here on a --
A Oh, I do scribble.
Q -- on a portion that says "section one stags July 21,
1980, plan approval"; and then there is a note in ink
on the side here, it says "why was this brought back
to Council on July before stipulation --of April not
complied with, question mark"; is that your note?
A Yes, it is.
Q And then there is another note here that says "Council
broke faith with neighborhood by having July meeting
before April 7, 1980 conditions met", Question mark;
are those your notes?
A Yes. I don't know why I would have put they neighbor-
hood down there, but T imagine this Is just, again: a
i
thought about vihy bring this back. 1
I
Q Were you wcrking pretty closely with the neighborhood
on this matter?
A No, but I was certainly exposed to it.
Q Would it be fair to say that there was some neighbor-
hood opposition to this project?
A I would say that is a fair comment.
Q Substantial opposition may be a better way to put it?
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES �
A:� K;•Kra:terr,d l ro/isswrtci' Rtpuries l
,� 11
747 Midland Bank autiding <
Minneapolis. Minnescia 55-4+J1 ��
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Phone 1612) 338-3530 Y
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A
(Witness laughing.)
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Q
Are you personally aware of any ordinance of the City
3
of Chanhassen that sets forth objective standards to
4
regulate the size and number of docks?
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MR. KNUTSON: As far as you are asking for
6
a legal conclusion I'm going to object; but, if
7
the witness feels she can answer it, give it a
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try.
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THE WITNESS: I'll pass.
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BY
MR. DIETZEN:
11
Q
I'm sorry, are you aware of any ordinance that sets
12
forth objective standards to regulate the size or
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number of docks in Chanhassen?
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A
I find that a difficult question to answer, Mr. I
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�
Dietzen, because I feel that within ordinances that 1
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are existing there are leeways which would give its
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that right
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Q
Al! right. What ordinances are you referring to? ' j
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A
1 would say that under the Planned Residential De-
20
velopment we have great leeways of decisions as tc
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what could be done.
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Q
All right. Would
gh you agree with me that the words
23
"dock regulation" don't appear ppear in any of those regula--
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tions or ordinances?
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A
I would not say that it does not occur. I will only
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registercd 1'rojcssionei W.vortcrs
747 Midland Bank Building
Minneapolis, MinnesctA 55401
Phone 1612) 338 3530
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say that I
cannot specifically
recall that it does.
Q
Okay. Fair enough. During the
time that you've been
with the City
Council, are you
aware of any regulation
of private
docks by the City of
Chanhassen?
A
Of private
docks?
Q
Yes?
A
Not that I
can recall within my
tenure, no.
Q
Do you live
on a lake?
A
Yes.
Q
Do you have
a dock?
A
Yes.
Q
Did you get
a permit for the dock?
A
No.
i
(Arhereupon there was a brief
pause in the proceeding.)
BY N;R . DIETZEN :
Q I, -Then you talked about the three docks, are you assurni
docks not wider than four feet?
A The three docks?
0, You said that three docks would be acceptable, and I
asked ---
A Yes.
Q And I'm asking whether you are assuming a width of ---
A Yes.
Q -- four feet?
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
I
RC,;cs!c�red Fr,)jc•.sswiia! Rrportc�r. I
747 Midland Bank Building
u Minneaeolis. Minnesota 55401
Phone 1612) 338-3530
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Yes.
How did you come to that conclusion that you could only;
get three docks before you got to the wetlands?
Well, I'm sure if you have a map here you'll be able
to determine that that's the flow of the land.
Well, I think I've got one -- at one point I had a
plat. Showing you a preliminary plat, which I believe
is Exhibit D to the complaint This won't do it. There is somewhere in existence an
aerial plan, an aerial view which -shows that as you
get passed here this just comes right out here.
(Witness 'indicating.) So, these three lots would not
endanger the wetlands and the breeding ground in here;i
but, if You get down In _"sere it will. (Witness indi-
cating.)
Okay, When you say "three lots", you're talking about)
i
the lets that are at the --
19, lc and 17.
19, 18 and 17?
Yes. And, this is even a dangerous one. This --- thin
1
one really ought not go beyond the middle of the lot, i
because the land -- there is no question about it,
Mr. Dietzen. I mean, there is a very sensitive area
in here.
Okay. When you say "a sensitive area", can you tell
' HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES '
Riktslrrcd 1'rnJi•,csic:r;c:l lirp<:rft'r: i
747 Midland Banknuildinq
y.. y Minneapolis, Wnnascts 55401
Phone 1612) 336 3530 Z.!
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me just what you are referring to as a --
The knowledge that I have just been able to acquire
from the things that we've read, and that have been
submitted to us, I will only follow the, you know,
the expert's advice on this; but, I understand that
there is a certain type of wetland in here. There are
-- I can't think of it -- cattails and marsh land.
It's sensitive. It helps to prevent the drainage from
the land going into the lake. There ,is a breeding
ground. We have wild animals, wild birds that nest
down in this area. I'm only familiar with this because
there is a similar area on the lake in which I live;
so, perhaps I'm concerned about it. But, I do know
that the dockage in here i s relatively safe, and I see
no fault with this whatsoever. I am concerned, and
have been, and it's well documented, I think, in every-
thing, you have here. I am concerned with dockage going
into the wetland.
mhe wetlands •mould be located near the shore there: as
You go further -- what, as you go further north?
Yes:. It runs all the way along this line here, and
all along the curve.
And, when you say it is a breeding ground, a breeding
ground for what?
Oh, heavens.
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
j'
Hr�;t.stored Pr. � rssuoruii 1:cprirte'r; I.
747 Midland Bank Build n
Minneapolis. Minnesute 55401
Phone (612) 338 35-10
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A
Is it fish, or is
No, it would be b
It would be both.
To the best of my knowledge. I know that there are,
you know, there are birds, fowl, and this type of
thing. It also prevents the infiltration of the run—
off going down into the water.
Were you aware that Dr. Warner concluded that the ten
docks would actually enhance the situation out there?
No, sir; I am not aware of that.
Did you receive a report from Dr. Warner?
I don't reca-11. I received. so many I don't remember
from whom they came.
All right. Do you remember uho the experts were that
you did receive reports from? I've heard Ken Karr's
name being mentioned from the U.S Fish and Wildlife,
and I know that Dr. Warner submitted a report; do you
recall any others?
it ,:eem_- to, me that there was some documentation, but
I don't remerber offhand -- from Don Berg of Soil and
Conservation -- that had some question as to the sub,--
ject.
(Vlhereuvon there way a brief
pause in the proceeding.)
By MR. DIETuEN :
r HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES '
�irktsh'rrd !'rofessi„rui Re porters
r
747 Midland Bank E'uiidng �
,•, ". Mtirnespolis. YSir:nesntn 55401 ti a y;t
�u Phone [612) 338 3530
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-- 27
Does the City have an official wetland distr'^t overlay
map?
We have a wetland's map.
Is there an ordinance governing wetlands?
There is one in the process of being drafted.
Not approved?
That's corre
ct.
.
To your knowledge, is there a public access on Lotus
Lake?
Is there a public access?
And, where is that located?
You are asking- me if there is?
is there; yes?
There is an access in the Carver Beach. Right now
t11-ere seems to be some controversy as to whether it's
public, per se.
All r-igh-t• . Contr-cversy between the City and
Nearby residents,
All -right . And, the DNR?
1 don't think the DNR is involved in that.
Okay . Do you know why this project has been pending
so long before the City Council?
I would have to say that there have been a lot of
changes from the original plan.
And, what changes are you referring to?
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
lr.�:,;f�'rra 1•rv%r.ainrci Rrpurh•rs
747 Midland Sank Building
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
Phone '6121 338-3530
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Well, the changes from the 49 lots to the different
number of lots. We had the curve of the street change;
specifically those two that I can think of at the
moment.
And, the City granted final plan approval in July of
1980; correct?
According to the minutes; that is correct.
And, from July of 180 to the present date, at least
up until the time of the filing of the lawsuit there
was no development contract that had been' approved by
the City; correct?
As I recall.
Do you knoll i,rizy it's taken three years to get a de-
ve-Lop:;ient contract approved by the City?
It <s 7,J r-e coii£cti.c)-. t! a all of the conditions had
not been met.
Isn't -'_t that the del7eloper wrote a letter to the
City :in,,lic.ating that it `.,as his position that the
con(�_ ticns had been met, and they wanted to proceed
t•aith development?
I don't; recall the letter.
Well, v,,ha.t conditions are you talking about that you
don't think had been met?
I have been trying to remember specifically, Mr.
Dietzen, I really don't.
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
12r is, 'ra'd i roof\6 (iFILi Rg)?)rte'rs
747 Midland Bank Budding
Mirweapoli%. M!nnaSCia 55401
Phone 16121 336-3530
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Okay. Now, you talked about changes in the plan; are
those changes that were requested by the City?
The two that I mentioned were requested by the de—
veloper.
You don't think they were requested by the City staff?
Not the number of lots, or the curvular street.
All right. Piave you ever met with, or talked about
this project with Frank Deddor?
No. I have not.
When did you first become aware that there was neigh—
bor: ood opposition to this project?
i co not specifically recall.
Do you think that's the -reason for the delay, is the
ne; ghbo-rhooc cn,:ositiar:?
Tr o ' ' t yy� ,
. .t L L 111 1 :: `- J :% .
Do you keep an appointment book that would indicate
i
-o,,lr a-oPcin1,-T,-,ents Over a given year?
is T f '
r ti n
Ise you have any other documents other than what you've �
Brought here today?
MR. KNUTSON: Except the letters I
mentioned from the attorneys.
BY MR. DIET7,EN :
Q Okay. Other than that; this is all you have?
A Yes.
I
1
Y
HERBERT L PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Rcgi tere(] !r,lessionui N,.'pu�le'rc
747 Midland Bark Suiidmg
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55441
Phone 16121 338 3530
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All right. And, it's your position that there were
no private meetings with any other City Councilmen?
No, sir.
You are sure about that?
To the best of my recollection, I have not discussed
this with any other City Councilmen.
I believe that's all the questions I have. Just give
me a minute.
(Whereupon there was a brief
pause in the proceeding.)
BY MR. DIETZ,EN :
Q Okay. That's all. the questions I have. Th-ere are some
documents here that I would like to copy. Would it be
!agreeable- ,with you if' i made copies of what I wanted
anL F7,41re ';'our documents back to your counsel?
MR. KNUTSOINT : Sure.
THE WITNESS: Okay.
R . DIE" Z;,i:: It's cheaper for any: to make
copies of ry own stuff rather than pay a dollar
a pare .
MR. KNUTSON: Is that what we charge?
Mrs, Swenson, you have the right to read and
sign your deposition after the court reporter
has transcribed it into written farm, and I
recommend that you do so; okay?
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
E
hegi:a•rcd Prof-ss.urai Repur!er,:
747 Midland Bark Buiiding
y
L4!
i ,�••
Riirinoepulis, Minnesota r5401
Phone (612) 333-3530
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THE WITNESS: Agreed.
MR. KNUTSON: Okay.
MR. DIETZEN: Okay. Thank y(
(Witness excused. Deposition
ended at 4:00 o'clock p.m.)
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Reg;sIvred Profvssiunu; Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building
Minneapolis. Minnesota 55401
Phone 1612) 338-3530
.r
d
32
1
I, Patricia Swenson, do hereby certify that I have
2
read the
foregoing transcript of my deposition
this ;:�,,-, day
3
of�'!Il
£ , 1983, and believe the same to be
true and
4
correct
(or, except as follows, noting the page
and line
5
number
of the change or addition described and
the reason
6
why : )
7
PAGE
LIFE CHANGE AND REASON
FOR m4AMnR
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20 .Subscribed and st-rcrn to
before ire this day
21 Of ---- ..� _ 19 8 3 .
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110TARY PUBLTC
P
PATRICIA SI-MNSOM
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
' . lir.r; rstrrt•d I'rnfi•a;r; rc1 Ji:•Uu'tr-•; i
)47 Midland Bank Bui!drng k
Minneaoolis. Minnesota 5540
Phone- ;6? 21 33H ?530 `e+•z- a.
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33
STATE OF MINNESOTA)
) ss:
COUNTY OF SCOTT )
BE IT KNOWN, that I took the deposition of PATRICIA j
SWENSON, pursuant to Notice and Agreement of Counsel; that I
was then and there a Notary Public in and for the County of
Scott and State of Minnesota; that I exercised the power of
that office in taking said deposition; that by virtue thereof
I was then and there authorized to administer an oath; that
said witness, before testifying, was duly sworn.to testify
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth relative
to the cause specified in the title; that I arf,. not employed
by nor related to any of the parties hereto nor in any way {�
_..fetes°.ee- in the out:ccre, of th1a action; thaw this is an I
i
i
accurate- transcript of ny stenot.:Tpe notes to the 'Lest of MY
ability prepared ur;der my direction and control.
WITNESS M:' H 11 D A1,1D SEAL. THIS day of June, 1081.
JEFFREY G. KELZER
Notary Public
Scott County, Minnesota
111y commission expires June 4, 1987.
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Rc4ic„•rcd Prri;cssiot;a f r lush r:
74 7 Midland Bark Budding
IAinneapulis, Minnesota 55401
Phone (612) 333 3530
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88
--
i, Donald Ashworth, do hereby
certify that I have read
the
foregoing
transcript of ny deposition
this 21st day of
June
, 1983,
and believe the sarne
to be true and correct
(or,
except as
follows, noting the page
and line number of
the
charge or
addition described and
the reason why:)
PAGE
LINE
CHANGE
AND REASON FOR CHANGE
AAtGE
10
9
Strike "you know"
�
To correct my statement
or the court recorder's
transcription of my
statement.
18
10
Change "street" to
To correct my statement
"lake"
or the court recorder's
transcription of my
statement.
23
13, 14
was rezoning,
Recorder incorrectly
subdivision,
punctuated.
53
1
Change "plot" to
Misrecorded
"plat"
58 4 Change "plot" to Misrecorded
''plat"
61 10 Strike first "that" To correct my statement
or the court recorder's
transcription of my
statement.
DONAL'D ASHwORTH
Subscribed and.sworn to
before me this Q2&'-day
of t� 1983.
KAREN J. ENGELHARDT
ilwl,�. NOTARY PUBLIC- MINNESOTA
1T? My Commission Expires Oct. 11, 1985 2 --
•�+. "T.,lj. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
Phone (612) 338-3530
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88
I, Donald Ashworth, do hereby certify that I have read
the foregoing transcript of my deposition this 21st day of
June , 1983, and believe the name to be true and correct
(or, except as follows, noting the page and line number of
the charge or addition,described and the reason why:)
PAGE LINE CHANGE AND REASON FOR. CHAN1117
62
14
developer's
request or
63
16
Change "that"
to "it "
63
17
delete "one"
86
21
not own. does
he own then
Subscribed and sworn to
befor- me this o2/4t—day
of cz<c/ 1983.
KAREN J. ENGELHARDT
NOTARY PUBLIC - MINNESOTA
CARVER COUNTY
To correct my statement
or the court r,Ycorder' s
transcription of my statement.
To correct my statement or
the court recorder's
transcription of my statement.
To correct my statement or
the court recorder's
transcription of my statement.
Recorder incorrectly
punctuated.
DONALD ASHWORTH
L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 p•pon..
Phone (612) 338-3530
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STATE OF MINNESOTA DISTRICT COURT
COUNTY OF CARVER FIRST JUDICIAL DISTRICT
------------------------------------------------------------
Derrick Land Company, a
Minnesota corporation,
Plaintiff,
vs .
City of Chanhassen, a
1,-unicipal corporation; and
Thomas Hamilton, Clark Horn,
Patricia Swenson, Dale Geving,
John Ne veaux, and Carol
Watson,
Defendants.
File No. 181.49
------------------------------------------------------------
DEPOSITION OF DONALD ASHWORi s
;:, anz. to Notice and Agreement of Counsel, under the i,-u:leo Of
C`Lvil Procedure for the District Courts of Minnesota, com-
mencing at about the hour of 9 :30 o'clock a.m. , June 2, 1983,
at Suite 1500, Northwestern Financial Center., 7900 Xerxes
Avenue South, Minneapolis, Minnesota, before Jeffrey G.
Kel.ze,l,, a Notary Public in and for the County of ":cots: and
State of M.nnesota.
APPEARANCES:
CHRISTOPHER J. DTETZEN, Esq., of LARKIN,
HOFFMAN,, DALE` AND LINDGREN, 1500 Northwestern Financial
Center, 7900 Xerxes Avenue South, Minneapolis, Minne--
sata 55431, appeared on behalf of the Plaintiff;
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered I rofessionat Reporter:
747 Midland Bank Building
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
Phone (612) 338-3530
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INDEX
EXAMINATION BY:
Mr. Christopher J. Dietzen. . . . .
ASHWORTH DEPOSITION EXHIBIT:
1. Notice and document request . . . . .
PAGE:
2
PAGE:
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_ v�Rcgute•red 1 rofessicinnl Reportersv ~ •, �
747 Midland Bank Building
Minneapolis. Minnesota 55401
Phone 16121 338-3530
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ROGER N. KNUTSON, Esq., of GRANNIS,
GRANNIS, CAMPBELL AND FARRELL, 403 Northwestern Bank
Building, South St. Paul, Minnesota 55075, appeared on
behalf of the Defendants;
ALSO APPEARING:
Kurt Laughinghouse.
DONALD ASHWORTH,
witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined
and testified as follows:
EXAMINATION:
By MR. DIETZEN:
Q Mrr. Ashworth, would you state your name and resident
address for the record, please?
A Don Ashworth, 7401 Longview, Chanhassen, Minnesota.
Q And, what is your business or occupation?
A City Manager, city of Chanhassen.
Q How long have you been employed by the City of
Chanhassen?
A I've been employed since April 1st, 1976,
Q And, how long have you been the City Manager?
A During that entire time.
Q And, pursuant to the Notice of Taking Deposition, you
were given a request for production of documents;
correct?
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered 1 rojessionai Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 .1�?
a" "" Phone (612) 338-3530
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A Correct.
Q All right. And, did you ,bring with you any documents
pursuant to that request?
A Only the notification to be here.
Q Let's mark that as an Exhibit.
(Ashworth Deposition Exhibit
Number 1 marked for identification.)
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q All right. Mr. Ashworth, showing you what's been
marked as Deposition Exhibit Number 1, is that the
notice and the document request that you were provided
with .in connection with your deposition here today?
A Yes.
Q All. right. And, is it your testimony that with respect
to the items I through 7 that you have no such docu-
ments?
A I have no documents listed under 1 through 7, me
personally,
Q All right. With respect to document request number 1?
A Okay.
Q Where would those documents be kept?
A All minutes of City Council actions are maintained by
my secretary in the main files for the City.
Q So, your secretary has the minutes and that's why you
didn't bring them; is that it?
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, HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES ; ..
Registered Professional Reporters
N• 747 Midland Bank Building 1
P" Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 `�
N•Pwi•, �V..S
Phone (612) 338-3530 i
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A That is correct.
Q Does she keep the minutes -under your supervision and
direction?
A All personnel of the City of Chanhassen work under my
direction.
Q Fine. And then does the number 2: correspondence re-
ceived from the --- or received by the City with respect
to the project, from Frank Beddor, or from anyone else;)
where would those documents be found?
A Correspondence regarding the project are maintained in
a project file, and that's through the Planning De-
partment. It is in the same main filing system of the
City.
Q Is that also maintained by your secretary?
A There are three secretaries who jointly share re-
sponsibility for filing, especially planning type of
documents
Q All right. Number 3: copies of any and all ordinances,
of the City of Chanhassen purporting to regulate the
use of the lake surface of Lotus Lake; are there any
such documents?
MR. KNUTSON: You are asking for a legal
conclusion, and as far as your asking for a
legal conclusion I instruct Mr. Ashworth not
to answer.
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters
ILI 2-, n 747 Midland Bank Building
w,,:....
''""••-^"•• Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
n.p•rc.,
Phnnw 16121 i 2A-�F, iC1
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MR. DIETZEN: Did you bring a motion with
respect to that, Counsel?
MR. KNUTSON: Of course I didn't, or you
would know about it. I'm just telling him not
to answer. We'll make all ordinances of the
City available to you.
MR. DIETZEN: Have you brought anything
with you today? You haven't, and that's the
problem.
MR. KNUTSON: Mr. Ashworth has nothing in
his personal possession. People from your
office have already gone over there and combed
through City files You've already seen that.
If you want to go through it again, help your-
self.
MR. DIETZEN: I made a request for him
to bring documents with him. I expected him to
bring those documents with him this morning.
Now, as far as I'm concerned, if there was a
problem with that.. I should have been notified.
He has no documents. Certainly we have reviewed
the file. That's not what I asked. I didn't
ask whether we've reviewed the file, or didn't
review the file. I asked him to bring documents
and he didn't bring one damn piece of paper with
I
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
i Registered Professional Reporters
qw 747 Midland Bank Building
o: "^ Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401.'
R, Phone 1612) 338-3530
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1 him.
2 MR. KNUTSON,z He has no documents in his
3- personal possession.
4 MR. DIETZEN: Well, I'm going to cancel
5 the deposition, and if you want to go through
6 it step by step, Mr. Knutson, we'll go through
7 it.
3 MR. KNUTSON: Fine.
9 MR. DIETZEN: And, I think it's a little
10 preposterous for me to make this request, and
11 for him to come with nothing.
12 MR, KNUTSON: He has no documents in his
13 personal possession,
14 MR. DIETZEN: And as the City Manager, he
15 supervises all of this., and he has control over
16 these documents, and yet he doesn't bring them.
17 MR. KNUTSON: He didn't bring them because
18 1 told him not to bring them¢
19 MR, DIETZEN: But, you.didn't tell me
20 that until this morning,
21 MR. KNUTSON: Are we through then?
22 MR. DIETZEN: We are going to reschedule
23 the deposition.for 11 o'clock at the City Half.;
24 and I would like to have this witness bring
25 with him those documents so that we can review
HER BERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered H-o(essional Reporters
Np ,•rw 747 Midland Bank Building t
F ter•••"„•r Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 d'"r
S.iwr:.r F�
Phone (612) 338-3530
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them.
THE WITNESS:- I'm sorry. 11 o'clock when?
MR. DIETZEN: Today.
MR. KNUTSON: Do you want the City files
-- we'll have all the City files there,
MR. DIETZEN: Thank you. That's what I
wanted. I mean, I want the documents that are
requested here. I didn't ask for the fun of
it,
MR. KNUTSON: You asked for documents in
his possession, and that's what I understood
it: "in his possession" to mean; and so I
instructed him not to bring them, If you
wanted the City files, you should have asked
for them,
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Do you have, Mr. Ashworth a any files that you kept
with respect to this project?
A No.
Q All right.
(Whereupon the deposition was
moved to the City Hall in Chanhassen.. The time
is 10:00 o'clock a.m.)
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters
ILI 4111, 747 Midland Bank Building
°'•"'°"•' Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
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(June 2nd, 1983;
11:00 o'clock a.m.;
City Hall in Chanhassen.)
EXAMINATION:
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q The record should reflect that we are now in the City
of Chanhassen -- what do we call the building here,
Mr. Ashworth?
A Chanhassen City Hall.
Q Chanhassen City Hall. And, there are documents on the
table here. If you would, for the record, generally
ider±tiay what they are by grouping here; and if you
could start on this side gust so I can orient myself
as to what we have
• You have three books containing ordinances. Those are
the original copies of all ordinances in the City.
You have a second pile of City Council minutes that
are filed by year, for years 1979 through 1983. You
have _-
Q These are the City Council minutes; are these bound
volumes here, Mr. Ashworth?
A That's correct,
R And., what's on top, the loose-leaf material?
A All. right. The loose-leaf material should rightly be
placed down with the last three files..
1 HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Tro(essional heporrers
a� •,r 747 Midland Bank Building
w.o.
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
Phone (612) 338-3530
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All right. I'll go down there and put it on the last
stack. So, we've covered the first two. Let's go
down further here?
The next set of loose-leaf, three --ring binders -- there
is five of them there -- they represent Planning
Commission minutes for the years 1979 through 1983.
The final group of papers in that -•- let's see --
start with the bottom portion, the three large -- how
should I describe those -- loose-leaf binders.
Legal sized?
Legal sized binders.
Okay.
Represent the Project File.
All right.
In this case, project Files regarding this project.
The loose materials that you just took off the top of
that pike --
Okay,
--•- should be repeated within that Project -- group of
Project Files, In other words, they should represent
extra copies of information that is basically in the
Project Piles. There may be miscellaneous information �
in there that either did not get filed, or was con-,
sidered at the time not important enough to be place;
into the official Project File. Rather than take any
a: HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 4V
a.00r;.If7�
Phone l6121 338-3530
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chance, I simply brought it in. The calendars -- my
1983 desk calendar from my office. The rolled document
is really a part of the Project File information. It
represents a submittal sent to the City of Chanhassen
by Mrs. Kathleen Schwartz as a part of the information
that she felt was pertinent to this issue.
She was a citizen opposing the project in general?
Kathleen Schwartz is a citizen. I have no knowledge
as to, you knows opposition. '
All right. Are these all of the documents that you
are aware of that would consist of the City records
and files with respect to this -project that is the
subject matter of this litigation?
M-R. KNUTSON: Mr. Dietzen, I should point
out,, as you probably are aware, I have taken
out confidential, attorney/client privilege
information; that is letters from the City's
attorneys to the members of the Council, and
letters requesting opinions from. members of the
City staff to their attorneys. That has been
removed.
MR. DIETZEN: Okay. Those two subject
areas: one would be letters from the City
Attorney to the Council members --
MR. KNUTSON: And, I think and to Mr. i
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
IL11, Registered 1 rofessional Reporters
aw•.,�, 747 Midland Bank Building
P, ^••'^ •' Minneapolis. Minnesota 55401
Phone 16121 338-3530
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Ashworth and maybe other members of the staff.
MR. DIETZEN: And the City Attorney was
Larson and Mertz?
MR. KNUTSON: That's right. And on some
occasions me.
MR. DIETZEN: And, what was the second
category that you mentioned?
MR. KNUTSON: Requests from the City
staff, or City Council staff for legal opinions.
MR. DIETZEN: And, it's your position that
those are privileged?
MR. KNUTSON: That's correct.
MR. DIETZEN: And, you have custody of
those documents?
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MRf KNUTSON: As of this minute, I do. �
MR. DIETZEN: I'm not agreeing whether
they are privileged or not privileged, but I'm
Just trying to get a handle as to where they
are in case we want to pursue it.
MR. KNUTSON: I'll probably leave them in
City Hall if there is an instruction to look at
them.
MR. DIETZEN: Do you have an approximate
time frame of these letters; would it be 179
through the present date?
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building t j
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401�a
.. xn.rT
Phone (612i 338-3530
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MR. KNUTSON : I didn't --- they go through
the present day. I don't recall when the first
one was generated.
MR DIETZEN: Okay.
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q Okay. Other than those items that you just identified
that were pulled out, Mr. Ashworth, are these documents
here the entire City file with respect to this project,
to the best of your knowledge, information and belief?
A To the best of my knowledge, the information on this
table represents the complete information regarding
Derrick.
Q Okay. For example, are there other staff files that
would contain correspondence with respect to this
project?
A City staff members have been instructed that they are
not to maintain personal files within their office
relative to any project; and, that's simply to for
reasonable assurance that our files are corr;plete as
part of our main filing system. I cannot -- I have
not one through each individual's desk to verify that
� E y
there are no such documents, that there are no letters;
but to the best of my knowledge, there should not be,
and I do not believe that there is.
Q Okay, Are there any other site plans, or schematic
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered f'rofessiona! Reporters
Rp rsbv.1 747 Midland Bank Building
P '•• ^ ' Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
i:•�.:.
Phone 16121 338-3530
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drawings with respect to this project maintained by
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the City that are not here?
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I believe during the course of the project, there has
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been one or more larger drawings mounted on a hard-
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backed board. I'm not sure if we currently have those
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or not.
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If you do, where would you find them?
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They would be in our engineering department. I can
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request that the secretary bring those in if she can
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find them, if there are any.
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If there are any?
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Yes.
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Okay. Perhaps we could have that done over the noon
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hour just so we know that we have everything. Okay.
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you indicated you are the City Manager, and have been
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since April i of 176; correct?
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That's correct.
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Prior to coining with the City, could you outline for
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us your educational background and work experience?
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January of 1971 through April lst of '76 I was the
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Assistant Manager for the City of Maplewood; Assistant
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Manager/Finance Director. 169 through '70 1 obtained
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my Masters Degree from the University.of Kansas. 1964
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through 1969 I was the Assistant Manager --- I had
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various titles during that time frame -- with the City
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
i Registered f rofessional Reporters
qps 747 Midland Bank Building 1
Minneapolis, Minnesota 554011�;:
Phone (612) 338-3530��
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of Vermillion, South Dakota. I also worked part-time
for the City of Lawrence,.(phonetically) as an ad-
ministrative aide during 1969/170.
Where did you get your undergraduate degree?
University of South Dakota in 161 through 165.
All right. And, what was your major, and your degree?
My Bachelors Degree was in mathematics; which is a
B.A.
All right. And, your Masters, what was your degree in
and your major?
My Masters Degree was in Public Administration, and
that is the title of the degree: M.P.A.
What are your duties and responsibilities as City
Manager for Chanhassen?
I supervise all employees of the City of Chanhassen,
and act as the chief administrative officer for the
City, working with the City Council, and the citizenry.
Who do you report to?
I report directly to the City Council.
And, how many folks report to you?
City of Chanhassen has 20 full-time employees. All
subcontractors are responsible to the City. And, in
terms of your question, they would be reporting to
myself as well.
Are there particular department heads that would report,
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES _
s Registered Professional Reporters
Pw ,• r 747 Midland Bank Building JU
P �'• N Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
Pw w:•
Phone 16121 338-3530
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to you; specifically the name Bob Waibel comes to
mind as somebody that whose name has come up in this
proceeding. Does he report to you?
A All employees of the City are under the City Manager.
However, in terms of an organizational chart, I have
selected department heads who then supervise employees
under them. Bob Waibel is an employee within the
Planning Department. The Planning Director is Scott
Martin. Bob reports directly to Scott Martin.
Q All right, Now, Chanhassen has a City Council, it
also has a Planning, Commission; correct?
A That's correct.
Q And, does it have any standing committees such as
Natural Resources, or something of that nature?
A Yes,
Q Could you identify those committees for me, please?
A Lake Study, Environmental Protection, Public Safety,
Housing and Redevelopment Authority, Board of Adjust-
ments and Appeals, Park and Recreation, Planning
Commission, Police Advisory Committee,
Q Does that cover it, to the best of your knowledge,
Mr. Ashworth?
A I would anticipate that I have left one or two out.
Q Fine. Do these committees then report to the City
Council, or are they a mixture of Planning Commission
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
.r.
i Registered Nojessional Reporters
Hp,• • y, 747 Midland Bank Building r
°rp'••^�•' Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
Phone 16121 338-3530
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Committees, as well as City Council Committees?
The committees are a mixture as far as who they report
to.
Which committees report to the City Council?
The Planning Commission, Park and Recreation, Public
Safety -- it just seems as though I'm missing one
other major group.
The other ones you mentioned were the Board of Ad-
justment and Appeals, Housing --
All right. Board of Adjustment and Appeals is directly
to the City Council.
Okay. That's four. Does that --
Two that I did not mention that report directly to the
City Council include the Minnewashta Lake Study
Committee, and the Lotus Lake Boat Access Committee;
otherwise, to the best of my knowledge, the remaining
committees either have their own autonomy, or report
to another commission.
When was the -- what do you know about the Lotus Lake
Boat Access Committee; when was it formulated, and
who are its members?
Lotus Lake Boat Access Committee consists of Candy
Takkunen.
Could you spell the last name for the court reporter?
I'm not sure on the spelling. I can give it a best
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
i Registered 1rofessional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building
"'°'••'� Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
w• '• Phone (612) 338-3530
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guess if you would like -- probably incorrect.
That's all right. Let's,.,go on to the other members.
Mayor Tom Hamilton, Melvin Kurvers, and a resident of
the Chanhassen Estates neighborhood, and I'm sorry, I
can't remember his name. The committee was formed
approximately three to four months ago.
Does it keep minutes?
Yes.
And, where would those minutes be located?
With my secretary.
Okay. Would it be possible to get those over the noon
hour, those minutes?
Yes.
Okay. Now, Mr. Ashworth, maybe you don't know the
answer to this question. It's a general one: do you
know what lakes in Chanhassen are within the juris—
diction of the City of Chanhassen; can you just name
them off for me?
Lakes in total, or part?
Bath?
Lake Riley, Rice Marsh Lake, Lake Susan, Lotus Lake,
Christmas Lake, Lake Lucy, Lake Ann, Lake Minnewashta,
Little Saint Joe -- did I say Susan?
Yes. Some of these lakes are partially within the City,
and partially outside the City; is that correct?
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters
Fw, ,• 747 Midland Bank Building t
''�'•••'� •' Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401''
F•pon •r �_• J��
Phone (612) 338-3530 ®C-fl
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A That is correct.
Q All right. Would you tell me which ones?
A Christmas Lake, Rice Marsh Lake, Lake Riley.
Q Okay. Now, with respect to Lotus Lake, does that have
public access, to your knowledge?
A There is a quasi -public access.
Q Would you explain that, please?
A It does not meet DNR standards for a public access in
terms of parking. It is a public right-of-way into
the street, and has been used as a public access even
though not legally designated as such.
Q Where is it located?
A In the Carver Beach neighborhood.
Q Is there -- you said there was a right -of --way; would
you elaborate on that as to how the public would have
access there; I don't understand?
A The original plat of the Carver Beach neighborhood
included a street right-of-way.that terminated at the
lake. Additionally, the entire strip of land adjoining
that right-of-way was given to the City by the owners
of the Carver Beach neighborhood.
Q How much land is that; can you quantify it?
A The right-of-way is approximately 40 to 50 feet. The
strip of land given to the City would be several blocks
in length, but a very narrow width, and represents a
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporlers
F.v •• 747 Midland Bank Building
Minneapolis. Minnesota 55401
Phone 1612) 338-3530
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sharp hill throughout most of that length.
How much lake frontage would that involve -- first of
all, does the right-of-way have lake frontage?
The right-of-way is perpendicular to the lake; so, it
runs into the lake and has the 40 to 50 feet of width.
And, how about that strip of land that you talked about
does that have lake frontage?
The entire length is lake frontage for the approximate
three to four block length.
You talked about some kind of terrain situation there;
what was that?
The width of that strip varies from 10 feet to 50 feet.
For most of that entire length, that width, there is a
cliff, a sharp dropoff that occurs throughout that
entire length.
In that state, is it usable for public access then?
Only at the public right-of-way area. However, there
is no parking available because it is an existing
built-up neighborhood.
And, that was the reason why the DNR did not character-
ize it as a public access, the parking, lack of park-
ing?
Lack of parking, narrow roads, inability to turn a
vehicle, improper access in terms of type of ramp.
All right. Do these other lakes have public access in
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters
A.u. • ; 747 Midland Bank Buildingk
P' '•••' Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
Phone 1612) 338-3530
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Chanhassen?
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Yes.
3.
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All of them?
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No.
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Would you identify which ones do?
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Lake Minnewashta is the only one which currently has
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an approved public access.
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Okay. Does Lotus Lake have private docks on the lake?
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Yes, it does.
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Do the other lakes have private docks as well?
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Yes.
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The City of Chanhassen has a zoning ordinance, and a
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comprehensive plan which regulates the development of
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property within the City; is that correct?
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That is correct.
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Q
Would you explain to me in general the procedure that
17
the City would follow with respect to an application
is
to developland• and let's use for purposes of our
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example here, a 52-unit townhouse development, what
20
would be the -- could you take us through the general
21
procedure that the City would follow in reviewing a
22
proposal to develop that type of project?
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A
The applicant would be required to complete various
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documents, and to submit those to the Planning De-
25
partment, who would work with the developer and process
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
Phone (612) 338-3530
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that application through the Planning Commission, and
City Council, including necessary public hearings.
Would a project involve study by any of these
committees, and how does that work?
To the best of my knowledge, the only committee that
would review the application would be the Planning
Commission. The Planning Department handles those
applications, schedules, meetings. If there are other
committees that would be required to review those,
that information would be available through the Planning
Department. I do not know.
Do you, as the City Manager, attend Planning Commission,
meetings, and make recommendations with respect to
specific project proposals?
i
I do not.
Who would be doing that; would that be someone from
the Planning Department? I
The Planning Department is -- the Planning Department
Supervisor is Scott Martin. There are a number of
committees and commissions that they provide staff
support for.. He would delegate the person who would
work with the Planning Commission on a particular
issue.
Do you attend City Council meetings and make recommen-
dations to the Council with respect to specific projects•?
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
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,•,y 747 Midland Bank Building
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I attend City Council meetings, and I do make recom-
mendations to the City Council; yes.
All right. When did you first become aware of the
proposal by Derrick to develop the property in the
Lotus Lake?
I cannot recall.
What's the first time that you recall being involved
with respect to that project?
I would anticipate that I was involved during 1979. I
cannot remember a particular issue. I know the item
was before the City Council in 1980.
Were you involved in any of the Planning Commission
meetings, to the best of your knowledge?
I was not.
As I understand it, this was first presented as a
planned residential development, or a P.R.D.; does that
square with your memory?
I believe so, yes.
And, there was a request for rezoning and subdivision
and conditional use permit?
The development would have involved a rezoning. I
cannot recall anything regarding the conditional use
permit.
Okay. Directing your attention to the minutes of the
City Council of April 7th, 1980, page 4, and I ask if
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
i Registered Professional Reporters _
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^ Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401�
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you would take a look at that and see if that re-
freshes your memory as to this project?
A (Witness reading document.) Yes.
Q All right. And, could you just summarize for us what
was before the Council, and generally the action that
was taken at that time?
MR. KNUTSON: The minutes speak for
themselves, but if you would like him to
summarize, I have no objection.
MR. DIETZEN: I'm just asking him to
summarize them.
THE WITNESS: The item before the City
Council on April 7th was rezoning subdivision
preliminary development plan for Derrick nand
Company. It included 52 residential lcts.
There were two motions. A first motion failed.
It gives no reasons for why it failed, I cannot
recall it. The second motion was approved for
rezoning to P1, approve the 52-lot preliminary
development plan with six conditions. That
motion was approved.
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q All right. From a planning standpoint, to the benefit
of a layman, the proposal was to rezone the subject
property; correct?
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters
ILI 141 Midland Bank Building 11 t _
y •'••_�^• Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 {
a•`d = Phone 1612) 338-3530
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That's correct.
And, what is the significance of the subdivision and
preliminary development plan review; what does that
mean from a planning standpoint?
Would you repeat the question.
Yes. From a planning standpoint, what does -- could
you explain to us what the subdivision and preliminary
development plan review means; in other words, what
was being done there?
The City Council was approving a development plan
which would reflect lots, and approving the rezoning
for that particular development plan subject to the
i
applicant meeting a number of conditions.
In effect, is this a preliminary approval subject to
certain conditions?
Yes.
Okay. And so, apparently there had been an application,
for rezoning, and there had been a -- the application
also included the subdivision and preliminary develop-
ment plan review; is that correct?
That's correct.
Okay. Now, after this preliminary approval, could you
just outline for me in general, under the Chanhassen
zoning ordinance, what would be the next steps that a
developer would need to follow to proceed to develop a
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES T:
Registered Professional Reporters
A� 747 Midland Bank Building f�
o,m...a. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 4'?o+°
Phone (612) 338-3530
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property?
A I find difficulty in responding in that the Planning
Department, again, is responsible to see an application
through from beginning to end. Your question is asking
me for the detailed steps that would be followed, and
I do not become involved in those. The general process
would be for the applicant to complete the conditions
as listed by the Council. The Planning Department
would review those to insure that those conditions
have been met, and would re -submit it back to the
City Council for final plan approval,
�? All right.
(Whereupon a brief recess was
taken.)
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q All right. Mr. Ashworth, directing your attention to
the Planning Commission minutes for 1980, for the July
9th of 1980, page 6: the minutes reflect final de-
velopment plan review by the Planning Commission as of
that date; correct?
MR. KNUTSON: What date is that again?
MR. DIETZEN: July 9th, 1980.
THE WITNESS: Okay. The minutes I'm look-
ing at are dated July 9th, 1980, and they do
encompass a final development plan review of the
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
ILI
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R.91,° � 747 Midland Bank Building
P'O'°�•'°^•' Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
R° Phone (612) 338-3530
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mri
Fox Chase Development, Derrick.
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q The action taken was to approve the final development
plan subject to staff recommendations; correct?
MR. KNUTSON: Do they approve or recommend
approval?
THE WITNESS: The wordage is to accept
the proposed Fox Chase plat dated May 12th,
1980, revised May 22, 1980.
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q All right. And then directing your attention to the
City Council minutes of July 21, 1980, page 2, and
they also reflect do they reflect action taken on
the Fox Chase Project?
A That is correct,
Q And, what was the action taken?
A Councilman Neveaux moved to approve the final de-
velopment plan based upon the configuration of 52
lots as presented to the City Council April 7th, 1980.
Four voted in favor, Mayor Hobbs voted against.
Q All right. Now, what does that mean: the final de-
velopment plan approval?
A City Council is again approving the development plan
for Fox Chase subject to a number of conditions.
Q From a planning standpoint, if the developer is able
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters
ILI
747 Midland Bank Building14
R ••• �An"t• Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
R.Rp t.• ���°°°
Phone (612) 338-3530 -n,• w
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to meet those conditions, can he then go forward and
develop the property?
MR. KNUTSON: As far as you are asking
for a legal conclusion, I'm going to object.
MR. DIETZEN: I'm asking for his under-
standing of the ordinance, how it would work.
MR. KNUTSON: Obviously there has to be
a development contract and other paperwork put
together at this point.
MR. DIETZEN: Well, I'm just asking him
for his understanding.
THE WITNESS: If the developer meets the
conditions, completes the platting requirements,
again, development contract, et cetra, he should
be able to move forward, yes.
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q What are the platting requirements, what does that
A
0
mean?
Submittal of the final plat, which would encompass any
changes to that plat required as part of the develop-
ment plan approval, and utility street work, et cetra.
What is the -- is the development contract an adminis-
trative function that's done by your people with the
developer to put together a development contract that's,
consistent with the action of the City Counc
iRegistered
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Professional Reporters
gro y •
747 Midland Bank Building
P�•••� •
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
R•pon.r
Phone l6121 338-3530
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1 A City staff submits the conditions as they have develope
2
through Planning Commission, and City Council to the
3 City Attorney's office for a drafting of that develop-
ment
4 contract.
5 Q All right. Then, that development. contract is then
6 finalized consistent with the action of the City
7 Council and subsequently approved by the City Council;
g is that correct?
9 MR. KNUTSON: Are you suggesting that the
10 City Council has no more input in the develop-
11 ment contract --
12 MR. DIETZEN: No, that it would come back
13 to them, and that they would then review and
14 approve it.
15 MR. KNUTSON: Or make changes and approve
16 it?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes. The staff preparers
lg through the City Attorney's office, a draft
19 development contract, which is believed to in--
20 elude those actions taken by the City Council
21 to date.
22 BY MR. DIETZEN:
23 Q All right. Now, those minutes are as of ,duly 21st of
24 1980. Let's stop at that point, Mr. Ashworth, and 1
25 would like to ask you: what is your recollection of
rr- r
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building 1
KIr
vMinneapolis, Minnesota 55401
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your involvement or participation with respect to the
project as of that date?
My participation was the same as other projects. I
act in a coordinating position for all of the depart-
ments, and will review items as they have developed
through Planning Commission, or other commissions,
and other input received in submitting the item to the
City Council.
Specifically, what is your -- do you recall participat-
ing in any staff review in connection with the project
as of that date?
I had prepared one or more memorandums from my office
to the City Council regarding this item. Whether it
occurred on that date or not, I'm not sure. 1
All right. Did you make a recommendation with respect
to the project as of that time?
The minutes reflect that the conditions included the
City Manager's report dated July 17th, 1980. 1 cannot
recall that document.
Whatever recommendations you made would be contained
in that report, or that memorandum; is that correct?
That's correct.
All right. Do you recall attending any meetings with
the developer, Derrick, with respect to the project?
I had numerous meetings with the developer during the
LI
1 HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES Pr . ,•
i Registered Professional Reporters
A.a., • 747 Midland Bank Building
N' ^^•' Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 ;
A•Von •i
Phone (612) 338-3530
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course of the project, yes.
Q All right. Can you separate them in terms of time
line, when they occurred?
A No, I cannot.
Q All right. Would it be easier for me to just ask you
your recollection of the meetings, then, and you can
tell me what sequence you recall them occurring?
A If you would like.
Q Okay. Let's do it that way. Would you tell us about
what meetings you recall?
A May I ask for clarification?
Q Certainly.
A Meetings of what?
Q Meetings that you had with Derrick, or representatives
of Derrick in connection with the project?
MR. KNUTSON: You don't mean City Council
meetings?
MR. DIETZEN: No.
MR. KNUTSON: Okay.
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q Go ahead.
A I remember several meetings regarding that the develop-
ment contract. That was subsequent to all of this
action.
Q Do you recall any meetings prior to that?
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
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Registered Professional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building
v'°'•"'°^•' Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401a
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Phone 1612) 338-3530
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A I know that there were several meetings that occurred
during the 1980, 181 process that involved attempting
to resolve the question of the conditions. I cannot
come out with specific dates of meetings between myself
and the developer.
Q Why don't you tell us your recollection of what occurre
at those meetings, who was present, and summarize what
occurred?
A I remember one meeting with -- I believe it's two
meetings with Dave Sellergren and myself and Mayor
Hamilton to discuss the development contract language.
I recall a meeting between myself, buss Larson and
Dave Sellergren regarding the initial preparation wark
on the development contract. I recall at least three
meetings with Kurt Laughinghouse to discuss issues
that were occurring at that point in time regarding
the development itself. I cannot recall, again, the
specific dates, or even the specific nature of those..
Q All .right. Let's take the first meeting between the
Mayor, yourself.and Dave Sellergren concerning the
development contract: can you capsulize for us what
that discussion involved in terms of issues or matters
that were in contention?
A The development contract had been generally formulated
by City staff. It had been presented back to the City
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
s Registered Professional Reporters
a 747 Midland Bank Building S
°ro'• •rM'•' Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401� O.Yi '
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Council to resolve and review parts of that development
contract. There were items within the development
contract, or as part of the approval that were not
clear, or had not been spoken to as part of the initial
reviews. The City Council acted to request that Mayor
Hamilton and myself meet with the developers repre-
sentative to put those into a final form, or at least
prepare some form of recommendation.
What were the issues that were involved?
Almost every section of the development contract was
discussed as a part of those meetings. The developer
questioned certain sections regarding types of security
timing for when improvements would be completed, the
value of the trail easement, the requirement for park
dedication and dockage.
What was the discussion with respect to dockage?
How many docks could be considered in light of the
Council's general action to preserve the wetland area.
Was there some discussion that no docks could be per-
mitted?
Yes.
And, what was the basis? I assume someone from the
City made that statement; who was that?
My response was in terms of -- during the course of
this project, one or more people have made the statement
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters _
747 Midland Bank Building , (
n•u�+•, Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
Phone (612) 338-3530
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of no docks. A part of the citizen input, I believe,
requested that no docks be installed. I cannot re-
member any council member, or any staff member who
took a position of no docks.
Was a position of -no docks taken by the City during
the course of this meeting between Mr. Sellergren,
yourself and Mayor Hamilton?
To the best of my knowledge, no.
Then, as I understand it, at least the nature of that
meeting, the discussion of the dock issue at that
meeting involved the question of how many docks would
be allowable; is that correct?
The meeting concentrated on the area of open water
that existed within the plat; and, ,yes, as part of
that, docks were discussed.
But, neither you nor Mayor Hamilton took the position
that no docks would be allowable at that meeting?
I cannot recall that statement ever being made.
All right. Are you aware of any City ordinance that
regulates docks?
MR. KNUTSON: You are asking for a legal
conclusion, and as far as you are doing that,
I'm going to object. Obviously we have a
subdivision ordinance, a comprehensive plan,
the zoning ordinance. They all bear on the
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered f'ro%essional Reporters
R•a 747 Midland Bank Building
°'�'•° •' Minneapolis. Minnesota 55401
R.pae
Phone (612f 338-3530
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subject; but, if Mr. Ashworth wants to answer
further, he can try.
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q Well, my question is: are you aware of any City
ordinance that regulates docks?
A Only through the platting process as part of the sub-
division ordinances.
Q Could you show me in the ordinances where that is
contained?
A No, I cannot.
Q And, why is that?
A The ability of the -- Strike that. The -- or, let
me start over. The subdivision process is administered
through the Planning Department. I have been informed
through that department, and/or City Attorney's office
that the City does have the right to control dockage
as a part of existing City ordinances. I have not
personally found it necessary to go through those
detailed ordinances.
Q Okay. Well, let me just ask'you this question: based
upon your knowledge of the City zoning ordinance,
does it have a section that specifically refers to
docks to Your knowledge?
A To the best of my knowledge, it does not.
Q And, does the section relating to planned unit develop
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
Phone 1612) 338-3530
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ment have any specific reference to docks, to your
knowledge?
A I do not know if it does or if it does not contain
sections regarding dockage.
Q All right. Has the City made a study with respect to
the dock issue?
A Yes, they have.
Q And, what is the status of that study?
A That study has resulted in a preliminary ordinance be-
ing drafted.
Q Has that ordinance been approved by the City Council?
A It has.
Q When was it approved?
A I believe in the spring, summer of 1982.
Q Can you look at the Council minutes for that time
period and show me where that was approved?
A There has to be over two thousand issues in this
document. If you would allow me to get another file
I could ---
Q Okay,
i
A -- I could more closely approximate that time, or get
its
Q Sure. Whichever would be the quickest way for you to
do it, feel free.
(Whereupon the witness left the
f1 �ti HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
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�a•••w•Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
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room and a short recess was taken.)
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q Mr. Ashworth, you have directed my attention to the
Council minutes of February 8th, 1982; are those the
minutes that you were referring to?
A That is correct.
Q All right. And, that, in effect, was a preliminary
approval by the City Council subject to review by the
Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, and then
final review by the City to be made at a later date?
A Action was to approve the proposed water surface
ordinance in preliminary form, and to direct City staff
to forward the ordinance to DNR for their review and
approval.
Q Okay. What's the status of the proposed ordinance?
A It is back to the City Council, and is scheduled for
a public hearing this month.
Q As of this date, the ordinance has not been formally
adopted, and enacted; is that correct?
A The Council approved an ordinance in February of 1982;
DNR rejlected that ordinance. The DNR has approved a
modified ordinance. That modified ordinance is back
to the City Council.
Q All right. Is there a so-called water surface usage
ordinance in effect at the present time then?
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i Registered T'ro/essional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
Phone 1612) 338-3530
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No.
Thank you. Now, I believe you indicated that the
discussion that you had with the developer regarding
the dockage issue involved how many docks could be
considered in light of the wetlands; is that correct?
That is correct.
And, what -- essentially what position has the City
staff taken in these negotiations on the development
contract as to how many docks would be appropriate?
City staffs position has primarily been to provide
the technical information requested by the Council,
and as part of these meetings.
Do you have an opinion as to how many docks would be
appropriate?
No.
During the course of the meetings with Mayor Hamilton,
did he exprese an opinion as to how many docks would
be appropriate?
I believe there were several counterpositions dis-
cussed, but each of those were subject to other con-
ditions and final approval by Mr. Derrick and final
approval by City Council.
Okay, With those contingencies, can you get right
down to the point and tell me what the numbers were
that were being discussed?
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
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747 Midland Bank Building
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Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
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A One of the proposals consisted of one dock that would
be accessible for approximately ten lots as a common
dock; one proposal encompassing two docks; one en-
compassing three; one encompassing five; one encom-
passing ten.
Q Which of those proposals were made by Mayor Hamilton?
A The proposals offered by the City included one, two
and three docks.
Q By process of elimination, Derrick was at five or ten;
is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q Now, you indicated that the consideration had to do
with wetlands; what was the -- who was concerned about
the wetlands?
MR. KNUTSON: Are we still zeroing in on
this one conversation?
MR. DIETZEN: Yes.
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q You can open it up, if you would like, Mr. Ashworth;
if there were other discussions that you feel would be
appropriate, I want to speed up the deposition, and get
to the point here if we can.
A Mayor Hamilton, acting in behalf of the City Council.
Q What was the concern?
A The location of docks as it would relate to the wetland
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters x.
747 Midland Bank Building
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P[••�•Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 `Vow", �
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area, and conservation easement.
Can you elaborate on that, please?
Through the development process, the Planning Com-
mission Council reviewed the project in terms of a
drainage basin and conservation area. That conserva-
tion area would basically encompass the entire shore
land area. There were no specific -- through that
initial process, the specific number of docks had not
been developed as to whether any could be included
within that conservation area, or several.
Did anyone from City staff make a study of the wet --
lands and prepare a report?
City staff drew upon various experts in terms of
submittal of information regarding that conservation
area to the City Council.
Who were those, quote, experts, close quote?
A Mr. Ken Karr from the State Department of Natural
Resources. I believe the fisheries,
U.S. Fish and Wildlife?
U.S. Fish and Wildlife, correct. It's Mr. Ken Karr.
I'm not quite sure of his position.
Wherever he's at. Okay, who else?
I believe a Professor Wellar who, I think, was
associated with the University of Minnesota at that
time. I believe that there were other contacts made
HERRERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
r�
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Registered Professional Reporters
x,
747 Midland Bank Building
nod ��
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
Phone 16121 338-3530'
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with the Fresh Water Biological Institute. I am not
sure as to specific names, or whether those parties
were either summarized in reports, or had actually
submitted the documents.
Q Is it your understanding that this information was in
some way transmitted to the City Council?
A Yes.
Q And, that would be by way of report?
A That's correct.
Q Some written material in any event?
A That's correct.
Q Whatever written material there is, would be contained
in the documents you've provided here today; is that
correct?
i
A That's correct.
Q Okay. is there anyone on City staff that has expertise)
with respect to wetlands?
A The City Planner, Bob Waibel has been a coordinator in
terms of obtaining information from outside experts
for the past four to five year period of time; and
through that process, has accumulated reasonable
knowledge 1n that area.
Q Do you consider yourself to be an expert on wetlands?
A I do not.
Q Do you know how many acres of wetlands are involved?
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES ; r
Registered Professional Reporters
A 747 Midland Bank Building
a �••• �• Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 9
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No. The primary discussion was really dealing with
the conservation area. 11
And, the -- in the so-called conservation easement?
That's correct.
Was it your understanding that these docks were somehow
going to destroy wetlands?
There were those who contended that position, yes.
In your opinion, is the placement of docks going to
destroy wetlands if there are ten docks placed there?
I was never asked for my opinion, and I have not
formulated one.
All right. Who are those that contend that wetlands
will be destroyed? You use the term, quote, those,
close quote?
I recall citizen participation throughout the project
that involved that type of testimony.
Any of the individuals you identified: Ken Karr,
Professor Wellar, or someone from the Fresh Water
Biological Institute, did any of those people advise
you that wetlands would be destroyed as a result of
the placement of docks on the lake?
Each of those experts cautioned the City in terms of
activity within wetland areas.
Well, let's take them one at a time. Ken Karr wrote
a couple of letters which, I think, I've seen. Are
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters
R.� 747 Midland Bank Building
o,R'• �a'l Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
R• wl•
Ph- 16;1 91 IzA_1r1n
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those the reports that you are referring to?
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A Yes.
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Q Okay. And, I don't believe I've seen anything from
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Professor Wellar. Is it your belief that he indicates
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in his letter, or written report that this project, or
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the placement of docks will result in the destruction
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of some wetlands?
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A I know the City has used the -- or consulted with Dr.
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Wellar. I do not know that he was asked on this
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project. I cannot recall a letter. If there was one,
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it would be in the project files.
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Q All right. You have no specific recollection of a
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letter from him, or any document from him, but �-
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A I do not.
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Q All right. How about someone from the Fresh Water f
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Biological Institute; is it your belief that someone
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from that group indicated that the placement of docks,
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the ten docks would result in the destruction of some
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wetlands?
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A I cannot recall any specific piece of correspondence,
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I believe that our Planning Department had informed me
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that they had received -- that they had consulted with
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the Fresh Water Biological Institute.
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Q Who would that have been?
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A Bob Waibel.
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES i
[ILI Registered Professional Reporters
nw ,• 747 Midland Bank Building
P o ••• «• Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
a. co
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Q You don't know whether there is a written report from
the Fresh Water Biological Institute; is that correct?
A I do not.
Q Okay. Well, what exactly was the concern about the
placement of docks in light of the wetlands?
MR. KNUTSON: Whose concern?
MR. DIETZEN: The City's concern.
MR. KNUTSON: I don't want to fence with
you, but --
MR. DIETZEN: As expressed --
MR. KNUTSON: What did the City Council
say?
MR. DIETZEN: As expressed by Mayor
Hamilton during these meetings.
MR. KNUTSON: Okay.
THE WITNESS: The standard development
contract section has defined a conservation
area.to include no structures, no alterations
of land, et tetra. The wetland discussion: was
a part of the discussion, but the discussion was
in terms of defining if the conservation area
could, or should be used in terms of dockage.
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q Well, let me approach it this way: was the concern
that these docks would somehow impair the wetlands, or
kl� HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building
P ••• Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 j
F•o�., Phone (612) 338-3530 `&N
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-- I don't understand what exactly the concern was,
and --
.As.I understand it, the conservation area encompassed
both wetlands, as well as the low area including a
drainage basin, that the entire question was one of
defining how that conservation area, including the
wetlands, drainage area would or should be used by
the developer.
Was there a concern about the usage by the people who
would buy these townhouses, assuming the project went
forward; was there a concern about their usage of the
lake?
Mayor Hamilton, nor the City Council, to the best of
my knowledge, ever expressed any such statement.
Has the City attempted to regulate docks on Lotus
Lake in the past?
Yes.
What project are you aware of where the City regulated
the placement of docks?
Riekurt Addition, Colonial Grove, East Lotus Lake
Estates, Sunrise Hills. Bloomberg Companies has a
plat, or submitted a plat that in the review by
Planning Commission had encompassed that type of re-
view. It was never consummated.
Did the project go forward?
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
i Registered Professional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building
a.�,.,..., 9
P Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
its
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A No.
Q Does the City have any ordinance that sets forth any
objective standards with respect to the number, or the
size of docks?
MR. KNUTSON: As far as you are asking
for a legal conclusion, I'm going to object.
MR. DIETZEN: I'm asking whether he's
aware of any such ordinance that sets forth any
objective standards with respect to the regula-
tion of the size or number of docks.
THE WITNESS: Again, the administration
of the subdivision ordinances is under the
Planning Department. I do not become involved
with those.
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q All right. Are you aware of any document of the City,
or ordinance, or any other document of the City that
sets forth any objective standards with respect to
regulating the size or the number of docks?
A The City Attorney's office has informed me that the
subdivision ordinance allows for the control- and
placement of docks. I do not know the specific regu-
lation, or the basis for his opinion.
Q All right. Are you personally aware of anything in
the subdivision -- was it the subdivision ordinance?
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
i Registered Professional Reporters x'
R.ys: •r •y 747 Midland Bank Building
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
R•.- .a j
Phone (612) 338-3530 V��!
A
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Yes, the zoning and subdivision ordinance.
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Q
Not the P.U.D. ordinance?
3-MR.
KNUTSON: That's part of the zoning
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ordinance.
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BY
MR. DIETZEN:
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Part of the zoning ordinance, all right. Are you
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aware of anything in the P.U.D. section, or for that
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matter let's say anything in the zoning ordinance that
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sets forth objective standards with respect to the
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regulation of the size or the number of docks?
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Personally, no.
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Q
Going to Riekurt's Addition, do you recall the number
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of units involved in that project, or generally the
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size of the project?
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Seven or nine lots.
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And, was some type of dock situation agreed to in that
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project? i
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Yes.
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Q
Was that set forth in a developer's agreement?
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Yes.
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Q
How many --- can you tell me what was agreed to as far
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as dockage?
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A
One dock for the existing parcel that's already there,
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one dock for the remaining lots, and some form of
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special situation existed where they modified that to
i
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters
R p747 Midland Bank Building 7- .
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P, c11.1�s:: lmal Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 s
R.pon.,
Phnno ia19� 11a_Ir1n �!
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include two; Z believe.
So, how many total; three?
Three.
And, Riekurt's Addition is located across the bay from
the proposed development?
That is correct.
All right. Where is Colonial Grove located?
On the east side of Lotus Lake.
How large a project is that?
Approximately a hundred and forty dwelling units.
And, were docks agreed to in that project?
Yes.
And, was that set forth in a developer's agreement?
i
Yes.
1' mean, a developer's contract?
Yes.
All right. And, what is your recollection of what
was agreed to?
One dock.
Is that an outlot, common dock?
Yes.
What was the size of that?
There is 44 lots in the first addition. The remaining
development plan encompassed an approximate 90 to a
hundred additional units. -
' HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
i Registered Professional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building y
i J
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 .RY
RDon.r
Dl.nno IR171 ']70 7C7n
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Well, the one dock would be a common dock for the
hundred and forty approximate units?
When it was first approved, yes.
And, has that situation changed?
Yes.
And, what is it presently?
The subdivider in conjunction with the homeowners
petitioned the Council to modify that to be one dock
for the 44 lots.
And, do the remaining approximate 90 units have access
to the lake?
No.
All right. Vdhere is East Lotus Lake Addition located?
That's the one you just asked me about,
Did I? I'm sorry.
Or did you ---
I asked you about Colonial Grove.
I'm sorry. My entire response was regarding East
Lotus Lake.
Okay. Let's go to Colonial Grove then?
Colonial Grove abutts East Lotus Lake Estates, and is
south of that; so, it's on the east side of the lake
How large a project?
It's an older project. I'm not sure. I would say
approximately 200 -- maybe I'm high. A hundred to
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Arofessional Reporters x.
747 Midland Bank Building
''�'••*'°^•' Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
N•p<uter Y_ •
Phone (612) 336-3530 a
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two hundred, I'm not sure.
Is there a developer's contract?
I do not believe there was one for the original de-
velopment. They carried out additional platting under
which, I believe, there was a development contract
regulating dockage.
And, what was agreed to with respect to that project,
Colonial Grove?
To the best of my knowledge, one; but, I 6-- it's
difficult for me to remember that project. It's been
several years.
When was that development contract consummated; do you
recall?
T
would believe, or I believe the `76 through '79 time ;
frame.
Q All right. And, it was that one dock to serve one to
two hundred units?
A I believe it was for the second phase of the develop-
ment, and I do not believe that it encompassed the
first phase development,
Q Did the first phase of the development have access to
the lake, then?
A I believe they do. There is no development contract
for that earlier development.
Q Is it an outlot, the dock situation?
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
i Registered f'ro/'essiona! Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building
P,�•.,�.•Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
Phone (612) 338-3530
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Yes.
All right. How about Sunrise Hills?
Again, one to two hundred dwelling unit
Where is it located?
The south and west portion of Lotus Lake.
And, was there a development contract entered into?
I believe so, yes.
And, what was agreed to with respect to docks?
One dock, and no mooring.
Did that involve an outlot then?
Yes.
And, you said "no mooring"; meaning what?
Meaning no boats are allowed to remain overnight,
either at the dock, or adjacent to it.
All right, Are you aware of any others at Lotus Lake?
I believe the deed of the lakeshore property to the
City from the Carver Beach owners encompassed no dock-
ing as a part of that of that deed.
Do the private residences, the other private residence
around the lake, then, have docks that have not been
regulated by the City, to the best of your knowledge?
Yes.
Going to the other lakes in Chanhassen, are you aware
of any other projects that involved the regulation of
docks by the City of Chanhassen?
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES r
Registered Professional Reporters ;f
747 Midland Bank Building 7
R sy:s : •:h .
r�o•=. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
p•°�'• Phone (612Y 338-3530
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A Yes.
Q All right. Could you identify those for me, please?
I've got the list of lakes you gave me; would it be
easiest if I just went through them for you, starting
with Riley Lake?
A All properties on Lake Riley were prior to subdivision
ordinances of the City. Those are all private docks.
Q How about Rice Marsh?
A There are no -- there are no -- to the best of my
knowledge there are no docks, nor any form of develop-
ment on that lake.
Q And, Susan?
A Lake Susan has private docks for about one-fourth of
it.
Q None of which were regulated by the City?
A I believe they were all prior to -- they were all in-
corporated during the township days.
Q flow about Christmas Lake?
A Christmas Lake has one development with a --- Christmas
Acres, I believe.
Q And, Christmas Acres, how many units involved, and are
there any docks?
A I know there was a development contract. I believe its
controlled dockage. I cannot recall the number of
docks or lots.
ILHERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
i Registered Professional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building
PiW•••w•i Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 �. •
p'Pp Phone (612) 338-3530 �'
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All right. I assume that all of these development
contracts are part of the City records?
That is correct.
And so, if we asked for them, you would be able to
locate them?
Yes, we should be able to.
okay. So, it would be your understanding that the
Christmas Acres was regulated by the City?
Yes.
right. Any other docks that were regulated by the
All 13
City at Christmas Lake?
No.
There are, however, docks on the lake that were not
regulated by the City, then;correct?
I've never walked the Christmas property, Christmas II
Lake property; I'don't know. I
How about Lake Lucy?
There is no coma -on outlot. It's a City park that
abutts the lake in that area; but, there is no -- no
dockage as a. part of that.
Was there any development, or dockage on the Lake Lucy,
them?
I believe for those lots abutting Lake Lucy they have
private docks.
And, were those regulated by the City?
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES -Y-
JJ Registered Professional Reporters 'r
747 Midland Bank Building 14W41,
a.."•'°' Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
.� ,. Phone (612) 338-3530
A
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I do not know. That's another plot that goes back
1
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several years.
3
Q
Are there any developments on Lake Lucy?
4
A
Yes.
5
Q
Which -- could you identify them for me?
6
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There is only one: Greenwood Shores, which encompasses
7
approximately one-fourth of the lake frontage.
8
Q
All right. Do you know whether there was a development
9
contract for that?
10
A
No. I do not know. Again, it was several years prior
11
to the '70's that that was platted.
12
Q
It has docks?
13
A
Now, did I make a mistake inhere? We are going throug,`i
14
the same set of questions I just answered?
15
Q
Okay. I think I misunderstood you, and I'm trying to
16
make sure I'm clear.
17
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Okay.
18
Q
Does Greenwood Shores, that project, have docks?
19
A
Yes.
20
Q
Okay. You don't know whether there is a development
21
contract, because it's quite a few years back; is that
22
right?
23
A
That's correct.
24
Q
All right. How about Lake Ann?
25
A
No common outlot.
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES r
Registered Professional Reporters .x-
747 Midland Bank Building {
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
R'°' Phone (612) 338-3530
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Could you explain that; I'm not following you?
You had been going through those developments that en-
compassed a common outlot as part of the lake. I was
following your same --
Oh, I'm just asking as we go through each lake whether
any of them have developments that were -- the docks
of which were regulated by the City; and my question
for Lake Ann is: are there developments on there, and
if so, were docks regulated by the City?
The City's plan for Lake Ann is to acquire the entire
lakeshore. We own at least half of that at the present
time. There was one other development proposal that
required the dedication of the lakeshore. That was
Oakmont. It did not proceed. It was approved by the
City Council, and the developer could have proceeded.:
He did not.
Were docks involved?
No, because it would have been a dedication to the
City.
Are there any docks on Lake Ann?
No. I'm sorry, the City maintains two docks as part
of the swimming area.
How about Lake Minnewashta, are there any developments
with docks on the lake?
Yes.
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
i Registered Professional Reporters
F 747 Midland Bank Building
P�'•••«• Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 ,
A•'a •, Phone 16121 338-3530�
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Q Have any of those been regulated by the City?
A Yes.
Q Which ones?
A Most of them pre -date my time; so, I'm not familiar
with the form of regulation that occurred. They all
have similar names, and so it's difficult for me -- I
believe -- let me do it this way: there is Minnewashta
Heights, Minnewashta Manor, Minnewashta -- there are
at least five plats in that area that have the name of
Minnevrashta something. Two of those are regulated in
terms of a common beach lot.
Q Is there a developer's agreement?
A I'm not sure.
Q Are there any developments -- well, with respect to the!
other three plats, do you know whether they are regu-
lated?
A I believe one is. I believe the other two are not.
I thought of another, and that's Trolls Glen; that is
regulated,
Q So, that means that three are regulated -- four are
regulated, two are not; have I got it right?
A There are more additions on the lake than we have
i
listed. I believe one other addition -- and, Y believe
it is one other addition -- on the northwestern portion
of the lake, to the best of my knowledge, was regulated.
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters
i 747 Midland Bank Building
Minneapolis,
•••�•nneapolis, Minnesota 55401
A• •, Phone (612) 338-3530
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Q Which one is that?
A The narne escapes me. Our Planning Department would
know. Most of the subdivisions on Lake Minnewashta
are quite old, and I really have very little knowledge
on them.
Q All right. Letts go to Little Saint Joe?
A No development.
Q In terms of the developments that have been regulated
by the City on the dock issue, and a developer's
agreement entered into, would that have been dune by
the Planning Department?
A Yes.
Q All right,
MR. KNUTSON: Anything in conjunction wit:
your lawyers, I assume, and in conjunction with
the City Council?
THE WITNESS: The draft portion.
MR. DIETZEN: Sure.
THE WITNESS: Is back through the Plannin
Department.
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q All right. What's Scott's last name?
A Martin.
Q And, he would have been overseeing that activity in
terms of the drafting?
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building
p prir •rN
p,or••.r„.r Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
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Ah
A That is correct.
Q All right. Do you know how long he's been with the
City?
A Approximately two years.
Q Who is his predecessor?
A Mark Koegler.
Q How do you spell the last name; do you know?
A K-o-e-g-l-e-r.
Q And, what period of time was he with the City?
A 1977 through 1980; maybe into 181. Late 180.
Q Where is he now, if you know?
A With a consulting planning engineering firm.
Q In Minneapolis?
A In the Twin City area.
Q Do you know the name of the firm?
A I do not.
Q Do you knots where it's located?
A Plymouth.
Q What type of consulting work is it; are they planning
consultants?
A It is a branch office for a nationwide firm; so, they
handle full range of architectural engineering, et
tetra, services. I do have the name. He still does
consulting work us, I just don't recall it.
Q All right. As far as any records kept on the dock
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES r
'r
Registered Professional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building t�
N.�:...:�. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 �.•
R'D° ' Phone (612) 338-3530
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regulations, that would be the developer's contracts;
is that correct?
Developer contracts, covenants, and I believe in some
cases actually recorded as a part of the plot.
Okay. Have you made any recommendation to the City
Council, or to the Mayor with respect to the dock
matter involved in this lawsuit?
Repeat the first part of the question.
Have you made any recommendation with the Mayor or the
City Council or anyone else in the City staff with
respect to the dock issue involved in this lawsuit?
To the best of my knowledge I have made no recommenda-
tion regarding dockage.
No recommendation in terms of numbers of docks or size
of docks, or anything like that; correct?
That's correct.
And, you presently have no opinion with respect to the
number of docks'or size of docks; is that correct?
I
I have no opinion.
All right. I'm just asking that question so that if
it comes time for trial, I don't want you to come in
and say "I do have an opinion".
MR. KNUTSON: He may have an opinion be-
tween now and then. He doesn't have one now.
BY MR* DIETZEN:
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
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Registered Professional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 Hg�
Phone (612) 338-3530 dd
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Well, if you are going to have an opinion, would you
let your lawyer know so that I can notify and discover
that?
Fine.
Is that acceptable, Mr. Knutson?
MR. KNUTSON: Off the record.
(Discussion off the record,)
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q All right. You talked about trail easement. Let's
talk about the trail easement, Mr. Ashworth. What was
the discussion that you had, or were aware of during
these negotiations over the development contract as it
would pertain to the trail easement issue?
A The value of the trail, and whether it should be Im-
proved or not; location as well.
Q Was there any discussion about the size of the trail
easement?
A Yes,
Q Okay. Was there a discussion regarding --- discussing
the size of the easement being ten feet versus 20
feet?
A Yes.
Q All right. What was that discussion?
A The initial planning reports and approvals through
Planning Commission conflicted with the information
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
i Registered Professional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building
.•Q51 •,ry
i PMinneapolis, Minnesota 55401�:,
Phone 16121 -VAR-I5Rf) �ii,
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reviewed by the City Council; so, that the action taken
by the City Council literally included two different
widths; and our position was to try to resolve that.
What was the conflict?
One of the initial reports spoke to ten feet, a report
back from my office spoke to 20 feet, and the engineer
felt a temporary construction easement of 20 feet was
needed, but a lesser amount for perpetual could be
considered.
Could you identify which reports you are talking about?
I haven't seen them. I'm not aware of -- I'm aware of
a memo that talked about a ten foot easement. What
document refers to a 20 foot easement?
One of the mer:_orandums from myself to ,the City Council I
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as part of the final approval. I don't know the
specific date. It would be in that Project File.
What was the nature of the discussion in terms of the
trail easement during these development contract
negotiations?
I don't understand the question. )
Well, was there an agreement to resolve that issue or
not?
A The initial staff draft of the development contract
identified the conflict that existed regarding the
trail easement, value question, and I believe location.
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Qz,
Registered f rofessional Reporters
N747 Midland Bank Building
°' ^•' Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401�'°
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Phone (612) 338-3530 '�K
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Again, the Council rather than attempting to resolve
those differences at a Council meeting, instructed the
Mayor and myself to work with the developer to resolve
that.
Was there any resolution during those negotiations?
The City Council -- there was no agreement reached be-
tween the developer and the City in terms of the
entire development contract. The position of the City
was.adopted by the City Council when they approved
that the development contract. That included the City't
position regarding that trail.
And, what sized easement does that contain?
i
I can't remember. I believe it was in terms of a
I cannot remember. I
All. right. It would be in the development agreement
language?
It would be in the one as passed by the City Counc:i.l.
Okay. Now, that was the action that was taken after
the lawsuit was commenced in terms of time frame?
At the same time.
All right. I'm showing you just a plat for purposes
of ill.ust.ratione it's Exhibit D -- for the record --
i
to the complaint, dated June 15th, 1981. Now, can you
show me just for illustrative purposes where this
trail easement would be located?
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building E
p pia i•.M
po•••�•Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
p•`� Phone 1612) 338-3530
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MR. KNUTSON: While you are thinking, why
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don't we take about a 30-second break. I'll be
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right back.
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MR. DIETZEN: Okay.
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(Whereupon a brief recess was
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taken.)
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BY
MR. DIETZEN:
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Trail easement -- do you see on Exhibit D7
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A
All right. The location of the trail easement was
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another area that was in -- that was not resolved
11
through the preliminary
y process. The original ease-
12
ment generally followed the shoreline area, and was j
13
to come up to Pleasant View on a back lot line. I'm
14
not sure if it was through the developer request: and I
15
through subsequent meetings with Park and Recreation, �
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but the easement area was re -defined to encompass over
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the top of the sanitary sewer easement through here,
18
come up to Fox Path,, and adjacent to the read up to I
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Pleasant View. (Witness indicating;)
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Q
Was that to be dedicated to the public?
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A
Yes.
22 MR. KNUTSON: As far as you are asking for
23 a legal conclusion I'm g going to object, but, if
24
he elects to offer an opinion -- I guess he
25 already has --
HERRERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
i Registered Professional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building 1
o ••• �^• - Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
Phone 1612) 338-3530
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BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q Was it your understanding that this trail easement
would be something the public could walk over and
utilize?
A That is correct.
Q And, the dispute there centered around the location as
well as the size of the easement; is that correct?
A To the best of my knowledge, as we approached the final]
discussions in the development contract, the location
did not appear to be a problem. It was whether -•- what'
the value was.
Q Value or size?
i
A Both.
Q Okay. When you say "value", ghat do you mean by that? �
it The developer was seeking a monetary reimbursement, or
)
credit. The City's position was that that was either
one, a public right-of-way, or over an existing ease
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jient, and no amounts should be given.
Q All, right. Now, the developer's agreement that was
acted on by the City was sometime this year; wasn't it,
1983?
A Yes,
Q And, the process started in February of '79; correct?
A I'm not sure of the date of when that started.
Q Okay. Well, I'll represent to you that according to
QkI HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building
�, P�••��• Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
k..•, Phone (612) 338-3530
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our review of the records, February 28th, 179 was the
first review by the Planning Commission?
A February of when?
Q '79?
A Okay.
Q All right. Assuming that time frame, and we also have
the final development plan approval in July of 1980,
then the development agreement that the City took
action on at about the same time the lawsuit was
commenced was in 1983. Would.you agree with me that
that is an inordinate period of time for review of a
project by the City?
MR.. YdiLTTSON: That hasn't been establishe(
Object to your characterization that it was the
City's review that caused that period of time
to elapse. Object to the form of the question.
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q Is that an inordinate time period for review of a
project?
MR. KNUTSON: You are asking him to draw �
a conclusion. I just don't think it's a proper
question, and I'll instruct him not to answer.
You mischaracterized the fact. It wasn't from
1979 to 1983 that the City was reviewing this.
whole thing; that's not a fact.
dr&l
i HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
torcd 1"Ofessiorlal Rcporlcrs
747 Midland Bank Building
.MinnOuPoiis, Minnesota 55401
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MR. DIETZEN: Well, he can assume facts.
I can ask a question. If you want to make an
objection, you can. If you are instructing him
not to answer, that's a totally different thing.
MR. KNUTSON: Since you've mischaracterize
the facts, I just don't see how he can answer
it; and I'm going to instruct him not to answer I
the question.
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q All right. Assuming that the Planning Commission re --
viewed the matter on February 28th, 1979, on August
3rd, 1979, August 22nd, 1979, on February 13th, 1980,
the City Council reviewed it on April 7, 1980, the
Planning Commission reviewed it on July 9th, 1980, the
City Council reviewed it on July 21, 1980, the Planning'
Commission reviewed it on December 17th, 1980, the Cite
Council reviewed it on April 6th, 1981, the Planning
Cormission reviewed it on April 22nd, 1981., the City
Council reviewed it on May 4, 1981, the City Council
reviewed it on June lst, 1981, on July 20, 1981, on
August 13, 1981, and on April 5th, 1982, on April 26th,,
1982, and that the --- assuming that the developer's
agreement was signed, or was passed by the City Council
about the same time the lawsuit was commenced in 1983,
would you agree with me that that is an inordinate
I HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
7 Pcgislered Professional Reporlcrs
747 Midland Bank Building 111P k a
Minneapolis. Minnesota 55401
•� '' Phone 1612) 338-3530
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period of time for review of this project?
MR. KNUTSON: Your assumptions leave out
many of the facts that are pertinent in this
case. You leave out the fact that the develope
changed his mind several times. You leave out
the fact that other -agencies had to approve it.
I don't think the question is proper, and I'm
going to instruct him not to answer.
BY MR, DIETZEN:
Q All right. What's the average period of time for re-
view of planned unit development it the City of
Chanhassen?
A It varies significantly.
Q What is the shortest period of time that a City has
reviewed a planned unit development?
A I would say 90 to a hundred and twenty days.
Q And, what is the longest period of time that the City
has reviewed a planned unit development?
A Where there have been changes it has gore into a five-
year period of time,
Q Other than that project, are you aware of any others
that have been under review for this period of time?
A Yes.
Q Which are they?
A The East Lotus Lake Estates project. The two other ---d
1&11�HE.RBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters
H•r 747 Midland flank Building -
H=o•=,,.,•. Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 - •����'�,�.�'
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Phone (612) 338-3530 4
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three other projects: Lake Ann P.R.D., Lake Susan
South P.R.D., Lake Susan West P.R.D. required extensive
time reviews because of --
MR. KNUTSON: You've answered the question.
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q Could you complete your answer?
MR. KNUTSON: He's answered the question.
You asked him to list, and he's made a list.
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q What were the reasons for the time frame involved in
those projects?
A The developer had changed his plans, or other agencies
had required a change that then necessitated a re --
review by the City.
Q How about the East Lotus Lake Estate; what was involvE
there?
A Numerous issues.
Q It was a planned unit development?
A Yes., it was.
Q How large?
A A hundred and forty-four units.
Q On how many acres?
A I don't recall.
Q How long did it go?
A Five to six years.
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered frojessional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
"` '� Phone (612) 338-3530
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How about Lake Ann P.R.D.; how large a project was
that, dial that involve?
I cannot recall. It was large.
P'.U.D=?
Uh-huh
How long did that last?
it still has not been consummated. It started four
years at the present time, and it's not complete.
How about the Lake Susan; there were two projects
there; right?
That's correct.
All right. East and West; is that what you called
them?
Yes.
All right,. Let's take the East: how large a project?
I cannot recall. All three projects were in a three
to five hundred dwelling unit bracket, each.
All three projects. Were there three Lake Susan
projects. or are you including Lake Ann as weld.?
I'm including Lake Ann as well.
All right. Any other projects that you are aware of
that have gone on this long?
There are a number of projects that were started, and
for whatever reasons have never been consummated.
All, right. Why has this project gone on so long?
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered f rv/i'ssivr:ri Reportcrs
747 Midland Bank Building
ldiinneepolis, Minnesota 554.01 /� a
Phone (6121 338-3530
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MR, KNUTSON: You are asking him to state
a conclusion, and I'm going to object on that,
but he can answer if he wants. What facts do
you --
MR. MR. DIETZEN: I'm asking him to testify
as to any facts that you are aware of as to why
this project has gone on so long?
THE WITNESS: Are you instructing me not
to answer?
MR. KNUTSON: You can answer if you want.
Cho on and give it a try.
THE WITNESS: The City Attorney's office
had notified me that the developer had asked
that the development contract process be not
started, and that was a time delay. There were
various changes by the developer. The project
encompassed a wetland area which fell under the
purview of the Corp of Engineers. The project
involved significant questions regarding
terrain, transportation; those are the primary
ones.
BY MR DIETZEN:
Q All right. When did the City tell you that the de-
veloper wanted to hold off on the development contract?
A I cannot recall the specific day. I was informed of
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
i FRelu;slered Rro%essional Reporters r
747 Midland Bank Budding
R Kjs:�•v+ �.�
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
Phone (61 2) 338-3530 '� `
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that by the Assistant City Attorney, and --
Q Who is?
A Craig Mertz.
Q Okay. What did he tell you?
A That the developer had requested that they not proceed
with the development contract; that's it.
Q How long a period was involved?
A I believe approximately six months.
Q Do you remember the year?
A No, I do not.
Q All right. You also referred to so-called changes by
the developer; what are you referring to there?
A A public hearing held by the Planning Commission had
considered 49 lots, I believe. When the item was
submitted to the City Council,,, the developer had
changed that to reflect 52 lots, or SDI. There were
significant questions in terms of procedures, how to
proceed with that type of change. The developer had
submitted two alternative plans in the middle of the
or following the City Council approval of one of the j
plans. There was a re -submittal for two -- will, an
optional playa. There were significant time frames
involved in reviewing the best.means to carry out road
alignments and improvements as part of those.
Q Why was the developer offering two alternative plans
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
ILI 24-, Registered Professional Reporter-,
747 Midland Bank Building t
Minneapolis, Minnascta 55401
Phone (612) 338-3530
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after final plan approval; if you know?
A I don't know.
Q And, the change from the 49 to. 52 or 54 lots was early
on in the process; is that correct; in other words, it
was before the final plan approval in July of 1980;
correct?
A Yes.
i
Q And, the alternate plan was offered after July of 1980;�
correct?
A That's correct,
Q Now, in your conversations with respect to the negotia-'
tion of the development contract, did you get into the
park dedication fee issue?
A Yes.
Q And, that involved a discussion of whether or not any -
kind of contribution of the trail easement and the
conservation easement could be used as an offset to the
park dedication fee; correct?
A The discussion was in terms of a credit for the trail
easement solely, to the best of my knowledge.
Q All right. Was there discussion at some point regard-
ing
ard-
ing the number of units assessed against the property?
A Yes.
Q And, what was your understanding of the number of
units that were assessed against the property?
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters I
747 Midland Bank Building
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401��,t�_{.��
P •:w.: •r
Phone 16121 33II-3530 �B'&
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I can't recall the specific number.
What do you recall of the conversation in these
negotiations on that subject, the special assessment?
It was not significantly discussed.
Well, other than your characterization that the dis-
cussion was not significant, can you tell me what was
said?
The City was asked the number of units. The City
stated the number of units being assessed. Mr.
Sellergren stated that he felt that that issue could
be resolved if we could agree to a total development
contracts that was the end of the conversation.
Okay. Is that special assessment part of the North
Side Sewer Assessment?
I do not believe so, no.
Have you checked on that?
No.
Okay. The North Side Sewer Assessment had been the
subject matter of litigations correct?
That is correct..
And, was declared illegal by at least two judges;
correct?
MR. KNUTSON: Not the whole assessment.
I'll object to the characterization of it. The
agreement speaks .for itself.
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
RrF;steredfro%essional R%porters
747 Midland Bank Building C
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 (W
• • Phone (612) 338 3530 —;Gk"
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BY MR., DIETZEN:
Q Okay. That was litigated before Judge Mansur, and
Judge Breunig; is that right?
A I'm not sure of the judges.
Q All right. And, I think you were involved in litiga-
tion with me before Judge Pavlak; do you recall that?
A Yes.
Q All right.
MR. KNUTSON: Off the record.
(Discussion off the record and
a brief recess was taken.)
BY MY,, DIETZEN:
Q Now, one of the items you brought up was the wetlands
which required a permit of the Corp of Engineers,
which was subsequently granted; right? You talked
about delay,, and that being one of the factors.
A The Carp of Engineer permit was required for a .sedi--
men,ation basin.
Q Apparently the City Council delayed acting on the
project until after receipt of a permit from the
Corp; is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q And, you indicated that there were significant ques-
tions with respect to terrain and transportation that
resulted in some delays; is that right?
g��1 HERBERT L. PETERSON 8: ASSOCIATES i
Registered IroJcssional Reporter,:
747 Midland Barak Ek.uilciin a
•••^� Minneaaolis, Minnesr_ta 55401
�' • Phone (612) 33P 3530
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That's correct.
And, in fact, the City delayed it to s1
tation issue; right?
No.
No?
To the best of my knowledge.
Okay. Was the Corp of Engineer permit
conditions of the final plan approval?
The interpretation of the City Council was that it was.,
Those specific words, however, "Corp of Engineer
permit" are not found anywhere in those conditions;
correct?
The words "Corp of Engineer" are not specifically
spelled out.
Directing your attention to the minutes of April 7th,
1960 -- let's see -- page 4, under the first paragraph
of the minutes for rezoning subdivision and preliminary,
development plan review, Sunrise Beach, Derrick Land
Company, the third sentence reads, quote, this sub-
division has been delayed during the course of the
past year to insure that the City reasonably considered
all alternatives for potential street patterns getting
to, and being extended from the proposed subdivision;
correct?
That is what it states, yes.
4° HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Rcpislercd Projrss:meal R,•poricrs
747 Midland Hank Building
RMy x'�s
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Minneapolis, Minnascts 55401
Phone (612) 338-3530
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Q Okay, thank you. So, apparently, that transportation
issue was something the City was working on; correct?
MR. KNUTSON: If you know?
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q Did you have any meetings with any of the neighbors
out there with respect to the project?
A You are going -- I would ask that you restate the
question.
Q All right. Did you have any discussions with any of
the neighbors who were opposed to the project?
A Yes.
Q Did you have any discussions with Kathy Schwartz?
A Yes.
Q Who else; Frank. Beddor?
A Frank Beddor.
Q Can you give me any other names?
A I believe Georgette Sosin, but I'm not sure.
Q All right. Did you have any discussions with them,
outside the City Council meetings that you attended?
A Yes.
Q Is It true that the conditions that were made a part
of the approval, were conditions that, in part, origi-
nated from this Kathy Schwartz and Frank Beddor?
A I have no knowledge of that.
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered Professional Reporters
` Np:Y.ula 747 Midland Bank Building
j�' •• • • Minneapolis, Minneso-:a 55401
F•,. Phone (612) 338-3530
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You have no knowledge of that?
2
A
That's correct.
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Isn't it true that you received a list of conditions
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from those people with respect to the proposed de-
s
velopment?
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Not to the best of my knowledge, no.
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You would deny that?
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Yes.
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Did you have any discussions regarding this project
10
with any of the Council -- City Council members out-
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side of the context of the City Council meetings?
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Yes.
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Who did you have discussions with?
14
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I cannot recall any specific conversations; but I'm
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every one of them.
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Do you recall meeting with them individually or In
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groups or what?
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Individually.
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Do you recall ever meeting with more than one City
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Councilman?
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No: Outside of a Council meeting is your question?
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Yes?
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A
That's my response. My response stays the same, "no".
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Q
And, I assume you had conversations with the Mayor,
HERBERT L. PETERSOi'N & ASSOCIATES .
t�
licgwvred Profe.::siunal Reporters
f;
747 Midland Bank Building I��e
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"• Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401 a
Phone IS121 338-3530 ��
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Tom Hamilton; right?
A Yes.
Q Are you acquainted with Lloyd Leirdahl?
A Yes.
Q Of Minnesota Sentry Builders, Inc.?
A I do not know what firm he is with.
Q He has a development in Chanhassen; right?
A He has built homes in -Chanhassen.
Q All right. You are acquainted with Frank Beddor?
A Yes.
Q And, he was opposed to this project; correct?
A I have no knowledge of that.
Q He has expressed concern over the project; would that
be a better way to put it?
A I know of no negative comment made by him.
Q Has Mr. Beddor been involved in some development
projects in Chanhassen?
A Yes.
Q Has the City purchased property from Mr. Beddor?
A Yes.
Q Was that part of a major redevelopment project for
downtown Chanhassen?
A Yes.
Q And, were bonds sold with respect to that project?
A Yes.
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
i
Registered Professional Reporter.
747 Midland Bank Building ,
N ••+ �• V
Minneapolis, Minn6sots 55401� .4
4. c�
Phone (612) 338-3530
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Q And, were proceeds of the bonds used to purchase
property of Mr. Beddor, to the best of your knowledge?
I think I'm referring to the property of the Press,
Inc.?
A The City sold bonds and used the proceeds to purchase
the Instant Web building. Whether Mr. Beddor is sole
or partial owner I do not know.
Q Has an interest in it, anyway?
A Yes.
Q Do you know what amount of proceeds were used to make
that purchase; in other words, what the dollar figure
was?
A No, I do not.
Q Was there any other use of those funds?
A Yes. �
Q Outside of this purchase from this -- is it called
I
Insti- Web?
A Instant web.
Q Instant bleb, all eight. Other than Instant Web, what
were the proceeds used for?
A Almost a fourth of the proceeds were used for capital-
ized interest. A portion is still in reserve for
acquisitions that have not been consummated; and
engineering, legal costs to date.
Q No other acquisitions have been consummated; is that
t HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Registered No(pssiorat Reporter;,
747 !Midland Bank Building 4JQy
a y.s'•H. K µ��
�aes,?Minneapolis, ARinnasc;s 55401 X �``• �w'SM 1
Phone (612) 336-3530
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correct?
A Through the use of those bond proceeds, no.
Q Have those bonds been since refinanced?
A No.
Q Was there an attempt to refinance them?
A Yes.
Q It wasn't consummated?
A That's correct.
Q Why?
A No bids were received.
Q That's a pretty good reason. Has the City of Chanhasse ,
to your knowledge, ever been involved in litigation
with respect to the dock issue involved in this law-
suit?
A I am unaware of any lawsuit that the City has been
involved with regarding dockage.
Q Now, I asked you some questions earlier about the
assessment, and you indicated you weren't sure of the
number of units assessed. How would we find that out?
A The City Engineer maintains a file on connection
charges.
Q A file on connection charges that you would be able
to identify this project, and determine the number of
units that have been assessed against the property?
A The Engineer has a file which reflects the number of
4 HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
' Re'gistered Professional Reporters
1 n� 747 Midland Bank Building
Minneapolis, Minnesosa 55401
Phone (612) 339 3530
►4a.
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units that are to be placed against the property as
connection charges, yes.
Q Okay. Now, we made reference earlier to a study that
was made by the City with respect to dockage; was that
study received formally by the City Council?
A I need clarification on the question.
Q Okay. Let me back up. When we earlier -- in your
deposition I asked you whether a study had been made
by the City with respect to docks. I believe you
indicated a study was made. I then asked you whether
there was an ordinance. We talked about the ordinance
and the status of the ordinance. Going back to that
question and answer, was the study formally received
by the Council?
A Yes.
Q And, is that a matter of record, then, that would be
available for inspection?
A Yes.
Q Where would that be located?
A City files.
Q Okay. So, if I ask for a document and called it
"study of dockage by City", would that be sufficient
to identify it for you to find it?
A Yes.
Q All right.
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
.
g:, trrcd !'rr�%r.+siorc( F.eporters -.
a.�, ,•,� 747 Midland Bank Building e,
.. Minneapolis, r• Minneapolis. Minnesota 554C11
p�' Phone (612) 338-3530 t5l4
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A It's Water Surface Usage Ordinance.
Q Study? I'm talking about a study as compared to a
draft ordinance. I think I've seen the draft ordinance
A There was a study committee that created the ordinance,
recommended ordinance.
Q Has the City Council reviewed, or considered any
environmental reports that you haven't already pro—
duced here?
MR. KNUTSON: In connection with this
project?
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q In connection with this project?
MR. LAUGHINGHOUSE: What was the question
please?
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q Any other environmental studies?
A No.
Q Does the City Council minutes reflect a verbatim
transcript of those meetings?
A No.
Q Does the City Council have verbatim transcripts of the
meetings involved: the Planning Commission and City
Council meetings involved in this project?
A Some.
Q Have those been transcribed?
L HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Ri,gistered Professional Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building ,
p p.a •�. ri '+i Y �iZ
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
F. Phone (612) 33£-3530
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A
Q
A
Q
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Q
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Q
Yes.
And, are they available for inspection?
Yes.
Do you know which Council meetings are transcribed and
available?
Any transcripts completed are the minutes.
Are they contained in the documents we have here?
Yes.
Any transcripts you have would be here on the table?
Yes.
All. right. Has the City had 'an appraisal done on the
subject property?
Not
With respect to the road, the developfrient of the Fox
Path as set forth on Exhibit D -- again for illustra-
tive purposes -- now, with respect to the Fox Path,
the layout of the roadway as it comes over in this
way -- which would be the --- as you are looking north
towards the southwest corner of the preliminary plat;
if the roadway were to be -- to ever go through, would
it be good planning to have it laid out as is set
forth on Exhibit D with the cul-de-sac and the 100-
foot right-of-way?
MR. KNUTSON: Object to the lack of
foundation as to his expertise to answer the
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
� 1;ckr.;lcr•cd 1'roji•s;'ii:nal Reporters
747 Midland Bank Building
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
Phone (612) 338-3530
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question; but, he can try to answer the question
if he wants.
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q All right. Was this a matter that was discussed, and
that you had an opportunity to review?
A Well, the Planning Commission, City Council reviewed
the location and design of all of the streets, includ-
ing that one.
Q All right. From a planning standpoint, based on your
knowledge and experience, would it be good planning to
have the cul-de-sac laid out as is set forth in
Exhibit D to the complaint, if the road -- Fox Path were going to go through at a subsequent date?
A I formulated no opinions as to the road location or
des-1.gn. We used engineering planning experts in that
area.
Q Didn't the City staff -- specifically, Mr. Monk --
indicate that it would be better not to have the layout
with the 100--foot cul-de-sac there if the road was
going to go through?
A if the road were to go through, Mr. Monk stated it would;
not be necessary to have the cul-de-sac.
Q Has the City of Chanhassen ever attempted to regulate
private docks on any of the lakes, apart from these
developments that we've talked about?
HERBERT L. PETERSCN & ASSOCIATES
ffi-gistered Nofcssionul Reportc,s
Hw;... 747 Midland Bank Building IV
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401;
e.m Phone ;612i 336-3530
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I have no knowledge of that.
Meaning what; you are not 11 aware of any such attempt,
or you don't know?
I don't know. I'm unaware of any such attempts, and
I'm also -- I don't know.
For example, if no agreement were contained in the
developer's contract with respect to the dock issue,
and you have ten lots in this project, that property
on Lotus Lake, what would prevent those people from
--• those landowners after purchasing those homes from
going out and putting docks on their lake frontage?
MR. KNUTSON: Just so far as you are
asking for a legal conclusion, I object. If
he wants to speculate as to what he knows; that'
fire:
BY
MR. DIETZEN:
Q
I'm asking
him to testify
as to his understanding?
A
I would be
making a speculative
statement.
Q
"v-'ell, other than Counsel's
suggesting that to you, why
would that
be speculative?
MR, KNUTSON:
Do you know the answer to
the
question?
THE WITNESS:
No.
MR. KNUTSON:
That's why it would be
speculative. He doesn't know.
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
16-gi;tered 1 rofessiunci Repurlers
747 Midiand Bank Building 5
•• r• Mi :^eapolis, Minnesota 55401
Phone 1612) 338-3530
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85
BY MR. DIETZEN:
Q Well, if I understand your answer, so I'm not confused,'
you think it's speculative, but you don't know why; is
that it?
MR. KNUTSON: I think you are mis-
characterizing --- why don't we start up with
the question again.
BY MR.
DIETZEN:
Q
All right. Let's take it one step at a time. I want
to get your testimony. I don't want
to get Mr.
Knutson's testimony.
MR. KNUTSON: I wasn't
testifying.
YR. DIETZEN: Well, your objection was
not a legal objection, but a
coaching objection;
which is consistent with what
you've done in
the past.
MR. KNUTSON: It was an
objection that
was trying to clarify your ambiguous question.
MR,, DIETZEN: I'm just
encouraging you to
_state your objections in the
legal form.
BY MR,
DIETZEN:
Q
The question is simply this: is there
anything that
you are aware of that would prevent
a landowner from
placing a private dock on lake front
property on Lotus
Lake?
HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
Rcgislcrcd I 'o/i'ssi<;:u:i R.,porier:
747 Midland Bank Building a
P•°'••^^• Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
Phone !f 121 336-3530
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A Yes.
Q What is that?
A Not owning the land, or the question as to ownership.
Q Well, let's assume that Roger Derrick goes out and he
buys himself a house on Lotus Lake with lake frontage;
is there anything that would prevent him as the owner
of that land from placing a private dock on his lake
frontage?
A Yes,
Q What?
A If he built in the Carver Beach area, he could not put
a dock in front of his property.
�? Because of that restriction on record. Well, let's
talk about other ---- let's talk about the subject
property: say he built a house on the subject property
and he has it on the lake front there; is there any --
thing preventing him from building a dock there?
A Again, it becomes a legal question that I really can't
answer in terms of who owns the conservation area, how
can a person reasonably get from his house crossing
lands that he does not own, does he own them. You
know, it, again --- outside of this deposition, if the
question occurred I would ask the City Attorney for
his opinion as to whether a person could construct a
dock or not in that situation. I would not make my
1 HERBERT L. PETERSON & ASSOCIATES
?47 Midland Bank Building
Minneapolis, Minnesota 55401
Phone (612) 33.8 3530
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