Community Facilities Study Commission CommitteeA regular nleeting of the Community f'acilities Study Connittee was
calIed to order aE 7245 p.m. at ol"d St. Hubertrs Church. The following
members were present: Paul OrDe1l, Katherine Ross, Tim Stone and
John Neveaux. Mr. orDel1 chaired the meeting. Other persons present
incl-uded: Lois Fiskness, Presidents of the Carver County Library
Association; l{ary Heiges, Director, Carver County Library; }lark Koegler,
City Planner; and Bob Waibel, Assistant Manaqe r/P lanne r.
The meeting started with Lois Fiskness giving a history of the referendum
of 197B and the resuLting prograrn which has been approved by the Carver
County JLibrary Board establishing a demonstration library in the old
Village HaIl. In regards to the referendum, she pointed out that if
the referendurn failed, the demonstration project would be terminated,
and if it passes, it would be continued under present funding through
the year and that the 1980 budget would contain provisions for them
to stay until a building was completed.
John ltreveaux mentioned that School District 276 rs having a referendum
this FalI and this should be considered in light of the Chanhassen
re fe rend um .
Jack Boarman then outlined strategies of why and when a date may be
set and stressed that cooperation with School District 276 will be
neecled in order not to create negative dynamics because of the time
and places for polIing.
The Comrnission reviewed the proposed referendum work schedule prepared
by Boarman Architects and I4r. Boarnan recommended against a possible
option of a June referendr:rn because of the need for at least 4 to 6
nronths of prepatory work .
Tim Stone rroved to accept the schedufe as proposed by I\1r. Boarman r^'ith
the condition that if it is fater found to be prudent to change the date
of Novernbe r 6th to an earlier date in tieu of the School District 276
referendum, the Community Facilities Study Committee should arrange
for such earlier scheduling. Motion seconded by John Neveaux. I'lotion
carrie d .
The Coruidttee then proceeded j- nto a discussion of criteria for
consideration of the work prooram. I,Ir. Boarman gave some popuJ,ation
formulas that woul-d be necessary for certifying the need for a library
facility and requested that l{ary Heiges send further information on
their population criteria. Additionally, I.1r. Boarnan suggested that
some sort of event be scheduled- for the opening of the demonstration
library with press cove rage.
Mary Heiges and Lois Fiskness stated that it would be nost helpful for
their Board to have a letter of agreement and support for the demonstra-
tj-on until a permanent facility is constructed and requesting that the
demonstration library open as soon as possible. Said letter is to be
Cor.munity Facilities Study Conmittee
February 75, L979
Chanhassen City HaIl
under the hand of the l4ayor. Motion by Katherine Ross and seconded
by Tim Stone. Motion carried.
llr. Boarrran then discussed some of the major tasks and questions to be
prepared for by the Committee, sone of which were on the prog::am
projections handout. Some of the major questions was: tlow far should
we project for construction? How will any excess space be used in the
interim? lihat neasures will be taken if space allocated runs out sooner
than Lhe program construction? How many site options are real-istically
availa-bIe (what combination of existing facilities or new facilities
shoul-d be used to optimize the construction progran?) on the issue of
how far construction shoulrl be projected for, Mr. Boarman recommendeC
that bare minimum of 1990 should be used in this projection. Additionally,
.Tohn Neveaux suggested the need for flexibifity so as to account forpossible city police, etc.
It was re comme nded that members of the key organi.zations involved in
the referendum convene as soon as possible. The plan for the first
meeting in March is to have the Fire Chief, Library representatives
and representatives of city staff to be at this meeting for their
input. Available at this rneeting shoulrl be a diagrart of all the
possible options brought forth to date,
Subsequent rneetings to the t{arch meeting would include further
major residential groups, downtown associations, and religious
civic organi zations.
Adjourned: 10: I5 p.n.
i nput ,
and
Bob waibel
Asst. Manager/Planner
Minutes
Com*unity Eacilities Study Committee lleeting
August 16, L979
The meeting of the Community Eacilities study Committee was called
to order by Chairman Paul- O'DeLl at 7:45 p-m-- Adaitional membef,s
present we?e Jack Kreget, ,fohn Neveaux,.AI Klingelhutz, and Nick
karLgz. Others present included tois Fiskness and Barb McMillan of
the Carver Co. Library Board; Fritz Coulter, Roy Leach, anil Martin
ilones of the Fire Deplrtment; Jack Boarman of Boanqan Architects,
and Staff Members Don Ashworth and Mark Koegler.
The first item of business was the review of the three community
facility alternatives anil subseguent costs associated witrl eaclt.
After a review of each option, City Manager asked if the Committee
,i"-g"""i"fiy familiar rri Lh each o? the ilternatives as presented.
a1 Xiingelhulz responded that he would like to see the amount of
land foi each of the various facilities shown on the cost chart.
Each of the sites were then discussed concluding that approxilF.ately
$75,000 should be budgeted for a 3-acre public works.building Site,
i:o,OoO for a \- acre iite for the satellite fire station in the
Lake Minnewashta area, and approximateLy 550,000 for a City HaII
site to be located somewhere adjacent to the downtorvn '
Fritz coulter then brought up the possibility of using the cityrs
tree farm area on the southwLst corner of Lake Ann Park for a
possible site focation for apublic rvorks facility. sewer and water
:;;Ie-il *"J" """ir"ble to tire parcer, however, concern was noted
,ith ra.""rring of vehicles, sa1!, anil gravel' Jack Boarman then
addetl that from a Park and recreation stanilpoint, such a site
in*"Ji"t"ry adjaceirt to the City's la5sest park may make a 1ot of
sense. It was agreed that the possible use of this land should be
"irr"" tu.titer co;sideration. Attention then centered on whether or
i"t-Lf," existing public rvorks building coutd be sold to compensate
for some of the costs associated with the new facility. rt was
teneiaffy agreed that the existing site on Ilighway 4l.was.not
larticutirlf marketable due to a iack of sewer and water to the
iroperty. -lt w-. stated that perhaps a more effective use of the
;;i;ai"; facility rvould be in orr-season storage of equipment;
ai;;;;;t""i.o maiit.i'ins some ftexibility in the future to use the
existing building for storag:e space.
cornments were offered as to the advantages and disadvantages of
o;ti;;. B, C, and D. option B- was.lookea at as having the psychol-ogi-
"'.I .drr.rri.ge of saying that the city is buitiling the addition to
the present- structuie i^rhich etiminates the necessity to acquire land
i", Lfr" city halt site- It was feLt however, that this positive
p"i"i v7", otf set by a nunber of negative factors- Included among
these vrere l-rse "orrtii"ts between th6 fif,e department and the Llbrary /
"itv-rriri bui1ding, the lack of future expansion _space on the existing
;ity h;ii iit., ,.ia the potential loss of some of the existing
;;;;";ti;""i ricilitie" ,tri"t lie immediatelv rvest of the existing
"iiy n"fr. option C rvas looked at as having a number of. favorable
p-i-"t, including the placernent of.each structure where it uttimately
;;;;ia g" i" tft" futu-re; the pubtic works facility being Iocated
in an industrial tyfe setting-, the city hall and library being placed
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on a site in the vicinity of the existing city haII, and.satellite
fire station being located in the Minnervashta area. - option D was
Iooked upon as ha.iing a major disadvantage in that it placed the
public wirks and city natf building together on a site which rvould
;;;a;;" uie conrricri between the general pubtic attending functions
il city hal1 and the maintenance equipment having access to the
s arne b"uil_ding - Atlditionally, it was felt that such a f acility
would not "oit.in enough exPansion space for both departments between
1980 and 1990. The library which is proposed to be an addition to
ihe existing city hall structure under option D was again looked
at as not t5taffy compatible with the traffic -
generated- by the
iire aepartment.- AI Klingethutz stated that if Option D was ttre
one app;oved by the comniatee, he coulil not in good conscious
vote ?avorably for such a proposal because he did not feel as thoug6
ii adequately- net the present and future needs of aII the City
departments.
The committee then discussetl whether or not the library should be
viewed as an option on the Novemlcer referendum. ft was concluded
ifr"l-tfr"-""iy Lption which r^rould easily lend itsel-f to wording the
ballot in th-at iashion would be option D. In options B and C, the
Iibrary would comprise an insignificant Part of the. total- cost of
th;-;;; "ity fr"ff-building si''ie basically its.requirements are only'
i"i "p"" spice witt in a uuitding \rhich may -ultimately be. easily
conve-rted over to city haII use as the need evolves in the future.
several of the commit-tee members stated that they had received
a number of comments on the library, most of which were in favor
"r--"""rr-" iacility being built as part of the Nover0)er referendrrm'
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Jack Boarman asked if the library t/ould be willing to participata in
a promotion effort on the referendum by organizingi- a- group of volunteers
wh6 would ilistribute literature and lobby for the library' Lois
Fiskness responded that the library would be happy to participate in
such an effoit providing that the -ity could supply all material-s
as the library Loard has very limitea frrnaing at the present time'
ao.r*-, =rrgg"it"a that a group ot 30-40 peopte be organized for the
library promotion.
Lois Fiskness suggiested that the Committee first determine what is
the best option ior the community at the Present as weII as in the
future and then discuss what are the best ways to sell such an option'
A1 Klingelhutz pointed out that Alternative C as it aPpeared on the
presentition boird should be considered. Option c sho\"s a PubJ.ic,
irorks facility of 10,000 square feet which wiJ.] accommodate a small
ur""""t-"f "*pirr"ior .r.". It was felt that in the interest of keeping
"o"1" ao*.r, ihe existing public works complex could be usetl to offset
potential iuture spac" ieluirements.. The City iuanager stated that
i" f,i= oPinion, opiion C Is really the best option in-the long run
because it p1.""=u.11 of the facil-ities in their most desirable
location. He felt that the most important factor 1''a s to monitor
the overalf cost so as to make the package more saleabl-e to the
public and that option C would accomplish this task' In regard to
the comnents that were macle earlier on the Lake Ann site for the
iiiiril"r.|.= r""iriiv, Ashworrh stared rhaL he rvould rike to obrain
ihe opinions of the irchitect, Planning Commission' -ancl -Park and
R;;r;;ai;; commission before accepting thar sire an6 reducing the
iirra ".q"isition poilion of the referendum by $75'000' Consitlerations
of this-site would also have to include transportation access, salt
leaching, screening, etc.
HalI portion of option C rvas figured
,OO0). Jack Boarmin responded !t,q!-iIthe costs used were for a "no fri1ls"
tee and Staff have stressed that
funcitonal and not overly fancy. The
700,000 cost figure included funds for
ty Hall back into Fire Department usage'
equire additional insulation, a new
, all of rvhich could cost as much as
t4ark Koegter then sununarized a polt that was taken in the Minner'tashta
"i.i t. aetermine }r"* trr" resid-ents felt about a satel-lite fire
"liti"". According to a telephone survey -
conducted- by the Eire
p"p"ii*""t, of thole contacte-d, 137 were in favor' 11 answered that
;;;;-;;t; undecided, ""a r- i"ait'idual stated that they were against
=,r"i, . station. These results showed that the sentiment of the
rr"igiil"it ""d is strontty in favor of a satellite staLion'
AlKlingelhutzaskedifanycomputationshadbeenmaderegiarding:tax;;";;;;;" to the itai.,iarr.i ProbertY oivBer' The llanager responded
ti;;; ;" figures haa vel u""n- esi"rrishecl but he would' guess that
"ppi"r"r w5u1d mean i"-"""i"ri increase of $50-60 per year rvith
liir-r":-"g offset uy-. proj"cted, g200 decrease due to recent property
tix refiei *"""ut"t- r""L.ttiy taken by the State Legislature-
Paul o'De11 asked if the cit
as finishetl floor sPace ($70
is finished but stressed tha
v
0tt
e
$i
t
s
tlT)e of facilitY. The Coruni
proposetl facitities should b
biti uanager added that the
ren6vation of the existing C
The existing CitY HalI will
roof, and interior remodelin
$50,000.
t_
t"
Discussion then moved to the site location for the City Hall portion
of the referendum. The Committee concluded that the recreationaL
facilities located behind existing City HalI should remain intact
since they serve as a neighborhood park facility and' af,e intensively
used.
A1 Klingelhutz moved that the Committee recomrnend option C to the
city council with lo,ooo square feet for public vTorks- ancl suf fj.cient
lan8 for future expansion; City I{aIJ- should be built large enough
with sufficient land for expans.!.<:rt; this option reould al:rc include
the library adequate expansion space for a Pcssible future police
departnentl and a satellite fire station in the Minneyashta area'
The motion was seconded by John Neveaux and open for discussion'
After discussion, the question was called with the following results:
Voting yes - O'De})-, Klingelhutz, Waritz, Kreger, and Neveaux- No
negative votes.
The Cornmittee then discussetl the locations of sites for each facility-
It was decided that sites shoultl be selected and options - purchase
obtained within the next two to three week period. committee mernber
ai xiingefhutz anil Don Ashl^torth will be contacting appr:opriate
;;"F;ai oi,rners immediatety in order to derermine the feasibility of'rp"!iii-" locations- Jack Boarman vrill also begil preliminary site
wLrk and floor plan options which can be accomplisheil prior to actual
iite selection,- Effoits will also begin on assembling appropriate
Literature and schedul-ing public hearings during the month of
October.
The next item of business concerned the Proposeil l'980 budget for
[ii" c"**""ity paci]ities Study Committee' Don Asht'orth offered a
fiief expf.rrition of each item and stated that he did not exPect any
action o.f th" item tonight- comnents on the budget will be
received at the next meeting-
In a related item, the city Manager asketl for committee approval to
hire an individual tc paint the steeple on old st. Huberts chulch.
Ashrrorth stated that hL knows of an individual- who may be able to
;;;;y;;, the work at a reasonable cost. John Neveaux asked that the
cii;l; liability regarding such a project be.examined'
John Neveaux rnoved. to authorize the manager to spend -upl" fr".r" the steeple painted. The motion was seconded by
Waritz anil Passed unanimouslY.
September 6th was established as the next meeting date'
to $250.00Nick
I4ark Koegler stated that two resignations from the Corunittee had
;;;; ;;;;aiy received: Kav Ross and Pat Bovle' The.committee
ieguested tnlt the park and Recration Commission appoint someone
to-fill Pat Boyles position and that' a representative from t'he
Planning Commission fill the other vacant post'
John Neveaux moved that the meeting be adjourned' .Motionby Nick Waritz and approved unanimously' The meeting was
at 10:30 p.m.
seconded
adjournedE
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CO},S{UNITY FACIIITIES I'IEEf,ING OF )h)/79 (ROUGH DRAFT) TAIE 2
The l-ocatlon for thls bulldlng as a pub1lc Iorks factlity has always been the
hlghest prlorlty. You move clty he11 out of lt, put the city ha)"1 now, es ldnd of
1lke in B and C, put it rhere lt should be, by the ye ar 2@O you ere in a
position rhere now the librery neede rnore space, the bullding you bu11t 1n 1990
you can expand lnto to satlsfy your 2OOO needs here. You can expand the pub1lc
works. What you cen do is elther build a separate 11b!8ry at the year 2OOO ln some
other locatlon to be deternlned ln the lnterirn that relates to the goals
and the cltyrs needs, or you can expend the clty ha1-1, beceuse you will have
purchased enough property ln the deslgnated area 19BO to al1ow for thls
to happen.
Okay, E looks at the ldea of taklng a pub1lc florks fecility' sornehow
spllttlng it for the 1990 use, keeplng this existlng hul1ding, shoring publlc
rorksandcltyhel].andllbrarybulltlnltsormbuildlngsonewherewheleyouere
also expanding clty ha11 and librery, but in 1990 because you kept these two
together. You have to move the Ilbrsry out, and frorl that standpoint you heve to
gothellblarysooner.Yourrorldhevetobeuslngtwopubllcrorksfacllltiesat
Least in the 198o-9o spectnn rhere you {ould be - to bull-d a snaller bullding ln
1980 that would also work ln 1990, you are uslng thls exlstlng bulldlng plus sone
public works, plus the clty haI1 end 1lbrary yourve got expanslon Qace there' but
by 1990 yourve only got city hall and publlc works ln the"e ' You are st111 thls
sp1lt publlc works faclLlty concept. By the year 2OOO then' elther by' then you
knov of your need exlstlng, so thls orlgi naI facillty because you nol' have
occupled the entlre 20rO0O sq. ft. of the bulldlng you bul1t In 1980'
the Ubrarly 1n 1990r yourve got to corne back ln 2OOO and bul1d a city he1l' either
attached to that 11br8ry - you have to expand the library' but you could bulld the
expansionhererbutyouhevetotakethetlibrsryandeltherexpandthecltyhall
onto it, or you bul1d the clty hall- somerhere else' So here you are bulldlng trlce'
first at 10 yearsr and then egain at 2OOO' Now this is also using the concept of
lettlngthepubllcvorksgrowlntothebulldlng.Thlsmeansthellbreryhestobe
conpatlbl.e*lththatlocatlon.Thatputsagpeclalrestralntonthesltethatyou
plckout.Thecltyhallasweshouedlnacoupleotherschenes'couldcarryalong
ln there, but by 1990 now se have to have , nor you are belng burdened by a slte
that you are carrylng for a perlod of tlne that works for pub1lc works uLtlnately'
butbylggoyouwouldhavetonoveoutendexpandandthenelsoin2000youwould
also be dolng the sarne with the city hall'
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It ls a litt1e confuslng for ne when I *ent through lt the first the for Don
and the rest of them rhen they did lt, I hope that, f am dono nor, end f hope that
this has been felrly conprehendable. It is sonerhat llke a pu.zzle, end you Just nake
certaln essumptlons end try and put the pleces together. T [ou]d like to sunmerl ze
by statlng that lt doesnrt neke sense to build for 20OO. It ls too rnrch space. You
cenrt use 1t 6nough now. So we are reelly bulldlng for 1990 !,'ith the attttude that
10 or 15 years doun the road you are golng to have to face so'[e nore construction.
I think nost cdmunlties are 1n that positlon. If they rant to grow, they should
be ln that posltion. Another assunptlon ls that 1n nqy orn mind, pub1lc works If lt
goes In a new buildlng, should bo the ultinate opE-rpler of that buildlng. That ls
Just a basic oplnlon of rry orn. Also, thet the ldea of the llbrary growlng from
1980 up to somewhere betueen 1990 ttd 20O0 and then belng located ln another bulldtng
doesnrt geen too lrnposslble fron the standpolnt of thls ccmnunlty ls going to be
developlng, and f donrt knoH whet your phllosophy is on the board about ultlnately
vantlng your oun bu11ding, your orm thlng as opposed to belng part of the city ha11
forever. sone IIbrary boards thet I have vorked rlth, 11ke Jerry Yolmg up ln Anoka,
they heve been In that, they rould Just ea soon do thelr own thlng f,or a nunber of
reasons. At least this gives you 15 years to nake that decislon. It could cone
faster lf the population grows end the d.emands er6 hlgher then we have proJected,
butat].eastsomeoftheseoptlonsglveyoutheabilitytobulldthesnellest
thing ln the beglnnlng, and then have a loglcal neans to shlft thlngs aror'rnd and
groq.
V Uith regard to the flre department, I thlnk the only thing uerve rea11y
addressed here tonlght because 1t ras easy for us to d6e1 rlth, becauee we dldnrt
heveanyotherknotledge,lstheldeathetthefirstthinglstheflredepartnent
should get thls apace, these two floors. A couple questlons --
Allthreelnonebullding,end.ultlrnatelylocetedrherePublicworksbulldlng
should be - thatt s a questlon. }lhat about city ha11, 1lbrary, flre departmert all
ln the ssme bulldlng? Itls ttolked ln some contmrnlties, sone cofimunltles have
evolved themsel-ves out of lt.
Another questlon I sould l1ke to have you thlnk ebout 1s the ldea of' several
of these talked about building new, a couple bulldlngs' You have to reelly
assess the need and say, I thlnk thls colErunity w.lLl pay for lt' I thlnk the needs
aresopronolulcedthatthatwlllpass.Dposesatdndoftnteresttngoptlonl,hlch
thrors the ltbrary end flre departnent on the seme ptece of property' It also
bulldsthemthegne].lestbullding.That|spartofthereferendun,andltstlll
allowspubllct,o"kstobelocated-anotherquestlonthatlgouldrantyoutothlnk
of ls whether or not you think a clty hell- being located where a pub1lc works
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feclLlty ultirnately should be, but only on an interln basis, that the clty he11 be
there. llhether that nakes eny eense. The other thlng that klnd of 13 one of the
baslc assumptlons here is that you ere building sonethlng that people get noved out
of. The other way ls to build sonethlnB where you can contlnuaIly expend et that
point and no one 1s evel. reaIly relocated. That ls klnd of the tro basic, some of
the baslc questlons and again, r,e are prosentlng thls Just to get your attltudes end
corments.
build for 1980 constructlon -
Sonething bul1t ln 1980, but planned to acconodate 1990 needs at the
ndnlmn.
trYom the standpolnt of expandablllty or use construct,
welL there is one
I think the nost of , the naJorlty of these you ale bulldlng for 1990ts
needs. You are golng to have gone vacant space. Iook at lt thls way, you build
a two story building, you donrt flnl sh the basement. l,lke Chenplln no.
They built their flrst floor, didnrt flnlsh any of the basenent, thatrs thelr
expanslon space. T an saylng that to bulld in 1980 and tot ork as hard as we
seem to be rorklng here ln the last couple of years, to do this all agaln in 10
years probably ls not. going to be too good ln rny oplnlon. You should bulld enough
expansion space, even if you donrt flnish it. The ldeaf thing is have another
user use lt. Hove hln out - that at8ln gets back to the other question of whether
you agree with that o! rhether you eglee w'Ith Just bulldlng es srall as you can and
building every 5 or 10 years. But lt aeems the nelghborhood of 151000 to 20r0o0
square feet ls about the rnlnlmun slze bulldlng you should bul1d to satlsff your
1990 needs. That lncludes L1brary, clty h411, publlc rorks, and then reuse of thls
for flre departnent.
What ls the police plcture?
That Is an lnterestlng aspect of D. You bullt thls eddltlon on to the fire
depertrnent, but the llbrary outgrors lt. pollce deparbnent. As fast
as you need the police departnent, that affects the longevlty of the llbrary. You
know, and I thlnk that rlght no ue ere talklng 1trs5 or 10 years probebly before you
uould heve to occupy - f donft knos hor, long 1t rrould be on po11ce. ff lt cones
faster than that, ln some of these schemes you have 5rl expanslon space in the
bulldin8 you are bulldlng that mlght eccornnodate then on an lnterfun basls. one
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WeI1, werre all golng to face the selle
WeallshouldfeceltrlghteIsy.So,Ithinkthatlsposslblehere.flhst
thls street becones then, lt does give you the parldng and access seperatlon thet I
think rould be approprlate. You rould also have p&rklng bu11t in that you rould use
lrtren you are open, but yet on the Yoekends recreatlonal use ln that park at nlght,
the fire departnent ls u31ng that parldng.
A ?ery dangerous sltuatlon here right now ls that the recreetlon people use
the exlt out thls way. It ls very dangerous. And r,e have alnost lost a couple guys
golng out the door at nlght. we have a]Jaost had a couple of colllslong rhen we come
lnto a fire, and another thlng that r donrt think you took lnto conslderetlon ls any
expanslon for flle departnent. f donrt think you can selt untll 1990'
Dcpanslon like Yours You nean?
No, any place. It ls elther golng to heva to be here or a sat elllte and I
lmow the people rould go for a setelllte.
That ls the polnt thet, you sre absolutely right, lt tras consld€red
but I think that ls xhy we are here tonlght.
I donrt thlnk you cen even walt unt1l 1990 for that. f thlnk John would
go elong ttith thet.
we hed a tough tine se111ng thls up north rlthout puttlng up that
satelllte.
So that would have to be
They donrt want a llbrara uP there
I donlt thlnk you have to I rould say tt* you {ou1d have to include
lt 8t thls tlrne, but I thj nk lf you are golng to pronl se the
people by 1985 you are golng to do sdrethlng.
Ithtnkthatlsgolngtocomeup.Anyoner?rotsLnterestedlnthevarlous
servlces they get frott thelr cconunity, let ne Just state
thlngs they never needed. When you look at rhat people vote for on a referendum'
It ends rrlth clty h411, and lt begins 8€nera11y rlth f1re, poIlce and educetlon' and
pub11c works lans Just ahesd of clty h411, so evelyone ls erare of' et least f am
arare of thet Poltce, fll.e and educatlon are pretty hlgh on everyones need 11st' and
Ithlnk - and poIlce ere plcklng up. So anyuay, the ldee of havlng a plen that you
can draft for corrununlty facllltles effort that says, nT63, thls 3,0o0 square feet ls
oPentocityhall,butelgothecityrlllbefacedrtthaddltlonalexpendltu,esfora
'1I q?T[ 1T aaBq nod pTnoc Jtoq
Sules rw I pu€ 'tI lnoqlpi u[puaJaJar B aABq ?ruplnoqs nort tuI,(Bs aJsI.!, notr 'etB{oBd
lBq? o?uT peppa 'EuIr(EB UIB I IIB sl lBql ssan8 I 'r{ou lI plTnq .(Bs 01 ltnoIJJIp
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qnoqt sEn {1IIIcBJ lEr{I 'IIBo B JoJ uT SuTuDc 6Jeelrmlo4 JoJ Ber" JotoaIIoc IIBrrrE
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'eq uBc sTql e{II euo puB t snlr.rrddr rfuq € ro Z a pua '3u1q1 g:o adrtl 1eq1 .acads ac1;rgo
t8uTularl uoo.r prnbs ;;o 'g 'be 0006 lnoqu 'JtIatBrrItIn sTqt e)iII eq plnon ?aql uollBls
euo ?IInq leqt {uTqt I ',teql sI pTp 1(aqt lBr{rt 5ZI lnoq8 sT lI .oBa srBeJt 6 ?noq8
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olrl qtnoJq? luen 1sn[ ,teql .faIIsA aIddy 18 tuplool aITI .o? 1sn[ .11e14
auo sTql r{tTri puroJ8 aq? JJo 1eB luon e14
'esTuo,rd B uo eloA a nort aa13 IIBr rtaql >{uTel lruop I
eJTJ 6 Tr{t plTnq ot unpueJeJal raqlouB e^Eq puB
{cBq auoa IITA alt 5g uT .1eq1 as pro.rd uBo aA {u1r{l lruop I .esprc.rd l|uac e$. pua
'1trat wc oA {uTql lruop I .05 lllun llar lruBc no;1 . eJW s Ir.{1 roJ
.BJBa{ 5 uI auo Jeq?ouE uar{l pu8 ..lou umpua,lag:e.r e Eul.a,eq uI €sue6 ou sT eJeqJ
.rtsr,tua 1T ee6 I sy .596I tltun IIEA ol Bulot 1,us1 q1 .?no pe^ou eq
ol aaaq ol 3uTo3 s1 lueudlnba euros ltr{t suaau lBql pue .e.raq pesnor{ eq 01 a^aq
luaudynba IBIosds 3;o adIl euos roJ uDoJ a{gft/a^Eq o1 BuloB eJa no{ .uuolulop
JoJ laqoq &ro1s g Jo L . g B ltxoqt 3upi1e1 ala l(eq1 JI .lrorDt no.( .1u1q1 1 puy
.luop nort JT a.Iaqt ?no
alol B 1aE .raaau 11rnotr .plnor nort nool 1 .ea.ra 1ar{l tuBlr nort J:I {uTr{l I
.slql {cBq
o? aIqB tuTeq uI palsaJetul eJa oqA aldoad ulelrac qcaeJ r(11ea.t o1 rtlpmlarcc aq1 o1
uo11e1uaea.td .rnor( uI 1eq1 aredaad o? a^aq no.rC .aq ot eaar{ plnotr leql .r1cap .tup(as
eJB no,( ler.tl IrDJJ {uTr{l I . a.ralnJ rE}au eql uT Ba.r8 Jeqlo euos u; luaurlaedep a.r13:
-7'
t
I Just donrt thlnk re could selI lt rlthout it. You knor, rhat ere we offerlng
the people - 8 new clty ha11, as you sey, ls lon on the1" prlorlty 1lst' A 1ot of them
donlt even lonol, rre have a city ha11.
Itr s alrlght
Youaskthemrherethecltyhalllsrldonrtknorrdorntotmsoneplace'
You Just mail Your tnalf there -
we1I, one thing that you &!e Is you are ptovldlng
3,00osq.ft.ofspacethattheflredeparfunentwouldhaveattheconpletlonof
thl s new bullding for 1!80, and thet means thls space ln here. Non, I think the
question goes back to Jack, hor does thls, haning th18 space affect your operatlon
&nd ability to serv-ice the conrmunity, 1s lt a p]us. Does lt a11or you more Iecrultnent?
Does lt a11ow you more tralnlng? Does lt ellos you to get the volunteers that would
substentiate another sattelite apparetus eree
Is there eny value ofthis to that constltuent gToup for the flre depsrtnent gettlng
thls space? Because you are glvlng lt to then by dolng thls, and thet is sdtethlng.
But ls lt enough?
We11, 1t ls very herd to get recruits from an aree where, you know, that is
so far aray. llith the Minnerashta area, they are closely essoelated rl th D(celsLort
beceuse they ale part of Dtcelslor, they always were before the mergert and a 1ot of
those peopLe dld not accept thls, end they stl11 donrt have a lot of thlngs to do trlth
Chanhaesen. fn 1lr years lte have plcked up lr or ! people fron there, 1 passed away
fron that area. we heve 2 of thean rho are charter nembers, lfu 9o wetve only
gelned approxlnetely 3 people from that areB. I belleve they ere Just too far away
from the actlon.
By the tlne those guys get her"e, they very selddr get out on a tmck'
I wonder lf another consideratton might be that maybe you can prlnt that on
the refelendurr, now opposlte of whet they atte thlnklng about a clty ha11,
if you go 5 years from now or I years fron now and try to have a referendrm up there,
nsybe the rest of the conmunlty fe€1s thet that ls D(celslor' w?ry should lte worry
about a flre statlon up there, they nlght not get It up there ' You nlght not
generate the lnterest
The area that would go 1n to, to do you any good, wouLd aLso have to be
recomtended by the Insurence Serv-Ice Bureau, beceuse the ratin8 for e clty for your
flre protectlon ratlng. They should be contacted before you conslder telIlng the
people ln }4tnnewashte we are golng to bu11d a flre Btatlon out there ln the future,
because they nay not reconunend that. They may say lr1, o! th€y nay say by the
Arboretr.un, I donrt knov. I rrould say thet ve should go up there, but they }'ouLd
say
-B-
By the Arboretun rre berely got
Istllldon|tthlnktheywouldputltthere.raritJustsayingtheyhaveto
be consldered to see what. they vould say before you te11 the people ln l{lnnerashta
we are golng to do this. Mayba lt nouldn|t do any good to do lt' To say deflnltely
that re ere going to bu1ld
rfwegoforareferendumnor,doesthatneanthatthosefundsmustbespent
wtthln the next 6 nonths or e year efter the raferendum p43568? can we have ldnd of
a staged bul1dlng
Yes, You can carrY lt out - I
0h, I
There 1s sone portlon of the 1av years' I{aybe ' Jack' you ere nore
fsml1lar rrith
It tles ln wlth thls lsgue' They donrt nant you to be selllng bonds end
you know, golng , rlght. lou got 51t noney that you are puttlng aYay fo"
106forXnumberofyears.ButrtheotherportionthetJackwagbrlnginguprelates
the questlon about potentlally p&sstng a referendum up In that area' I think you
shouldreallyconslderthatlfthelelsonelgsuethatrlllgell,{'l1lprobab1ybe
ln the area of flre. I thlnk even thLs erea r.111 galn support for fire ln that
area. I guess wh* concerr:s me ls that any of these plans' lt rea11y l-ooks 1lke
you are bulldlng tro fecllltles as I see lt' one bulld1ng nay be t{e11' but lf you
rea1ly put thet ln context of buildlng to a pub11c sorks fecl1ity, puttlng It rhere
publlc norks b6longs, you are rea11y saylng lt ls an lndustrlaL type of use' and 1t
should be ln an lndustrlal areat and I donrt thlnk that that would hlt the needs of
rrhat r,e are talklng about for 11brary'
lndustrlal area' You lsror what we l,ant? We rould llke to move
ln thet new dounto$n area, not ln tt, but on the perlphery' you know fike on map
there eventually. lle rould llke to have a separate bulldlng by 1995 or 2000'
whetgver, and a separete bullding on the perlphery of that ner dovntoun area beceuse
people d1d not realize that llbrarlee 1111 brlng people lnto th&t aree'
It ls hard to get people to reall ze that' but we ers a conpetible nelghbor to
cormerclal buslness. Not ln the nlddle of the stores' but on the slde or
. That ls rhy the vlllage he11 1s a perfect location for us
rlght non, beceuse lt ls a block off of naln street' 1531rs rhat we rant ' "/e
donrt rant it by a school, because then rrer1I look llke a
-9-
school llbrary, snd we donrt rant that. Public works or an lndustrlal areer, lre
couldnrt posslbly do that rlth the chlldren rr&lking over that hlghway, wherever you,
wherever the lndustrial park is. The other thing ls re dontt think thet 509 of
Chanhassen to btcelslor. f can te11 you for the last 3 nonths how nany
people used the D(cel-s1or 1lbrary from Carver County, and lets a""ure,zltrtil Ef,Enhassen.
They nay be fron Waconla or Chaska, but that ls rea11y stretching it. But ue h&ve
how many people each nonth use the ExceLslor 1lbrary. Elfty people e month use
Eden Fralrle. Thatrs because some of then
Approxlrnately !00 a nonth use Excelslor, and some of those go trlce, in that nonth
perlod. Thatrs bulld a 1lttle blt bigger and eventually xe
night get lnto a conplex domtownr or yherever that new area goes.
Havd you ever checked Southdale?
YeB, I can glve you the Southdale flgures too. The Southdsle flgures wlll show
Carver County. It sil1 not Just shorr Chenhessen, but I can get those flgures becauge
Southdale has asked and lt has been surveyed, and, for the exact city. I cen flnd
the exact citLes too
It nLBht be lnterestlng because I use Southdale
You see, from the uhole Carver County In JenuerJr, whl ch i.s a good nonth ln
Llbrary rork, 1lr1 people fron Carver County used Southdale. Sone of those use 2 or
3 tlnes, because Southdele ls a hearry used p1ace. Yes, thaf is the entlre county,
but I could flnd the clty statlstlcs for
llke tre have been 2,"*8Ef"fo. et least trlce a nonth
You are part of the 500 people that go to E(celslor
We have been open 5 days over at the rrlllage hell, end
2! people a day ln thet tlme, but
nobody rea11y knorg nhere se ate at. We heve prepared for eL1 of you, and I rri1l
glve you a copy of lt locetion, end about
size. We had rrltten thls up and re went over thls list with the llbrary board on
Thursday night, and lt 1s based nostly on the state guldellnes for public llbrary
bulldlngs. They have declded to adopt those. These are the guidellnes. The other
thing that before we get off of this, people are asklng us a).ready about the village
ha11, and re thought, I knor that you donrt have anythlng prepared
but we thought we should at least put thls out on out s1ip, but re wanted
you to know about lt before re d1d anythlng. at the botton.
tJe have hed people ask why ar6 you sudd€nly ln here nor. They donrt know the reason
They know sotethlng ls golng to happ€n
-10-
f have copies of thls
People ere aaYlng what?
llhy are you suddenly here, aftor alL of these yeara? l'lhy are you here
suddenfy }{arch 3?
It hasnit been that nany yoarE that a county llbrary
In the flrst place, rlght?
lronlc that we dldnrt have e llbrary
here soonerr/ti,Int[fiEklrurary lssue naa brought up before the county on the
referendum fo! Charlhaesen, I put the library lssue over ln Cerver County and
that county llbrary In Waconia and orrood and Watertorn and Young Amerl ca
flnally Chenhessen
facllity to Put 1t ln.
But one of the reasons rre dldnrt have e
Space could have boen rented for us'
There wasnlt ar1Y.
AnYraY,
As fa! es the 1itt1e book nark thlngs
prlnted and have then aval18bl-e at our desk to hand out unt11 sonethlng nore
fortal cones out
I think lt probably Eould be a good ldea b€cause I heve heard storles
that the onfy reason you ere there ls so they can get the 1lbrary passed on the
referendun. You h!$f all ldnds of thlnSst but that ls one ihing I heard'
You can say on November 6, I thtnk that ls a glven et thls polnt' lsnft
it? By both tr13 cotmlttee and councll I thlnk' I thlnk the tror beforert could be
hle took th et fron the notlon flhen we iere here last nonth
Novenber 5 has been set, an I correct?
okay, wel11 strlke the lon or beforerr
Heve you got the fu11 nenbershlp ro11 on this conrnlttee' Don?
"lght nou, and now we can
approval, lre could have those
How nanY
nenrbers are on lt?
You are short one, Tln Stone Just quit '
evenlng. Paul OrDell
and GarY Eastbum ls not here thls
There rere 8 of them, oh there rere I to begln rlth?So now lre are down
to7
I think flhat ue are
or Is thls Just 811 our lnformatlon?'
COMMUNITY FACILITIES I'tsETING OF )/73/?9 (ROUGH DRAFT) TAPE 3
I'ron the plsnntng cormtlssionr s standpolnt, we have gone over all of that
l,.lth the alternatives, novlng it dorrn e littIe blt. Those thlngs have all been
hashed over once before.
How do you handle snow on somethlng 11ke thls?
Snow is handled by stnply taldng off the site
There Is no outslde You Just ""rodtf,gt" Is no place to put 1t.
You remove lt fron the site. Thatrs what they do now on other sites. The
tendency has been to a 1ltt1e ernaller slte than l.e once had, I mean
operatlon, and then when the snow gets to that polnt they Just slnply remove lt.
There is no outside storage. It ls aL1
I guess that wi1l teLl you a lot of things. ff you have any questlons
lrve got a Lot of lnfonnatlon thab I havenrt covered at all. Basically,
we thlnk it is an excellent proJect, se thlnk tt is doing what lt should be dolng,
end thet ls that it ls golng to look neet, lt will look great. It faces the rlght
dlrectlon, angled right, the elevatlons are right. The rlLl be
good looklng. Landscaplng ri11 be, as Holiday says, the nost we have ever put in.
fs lt nomal for you to look et the backslde of the sltes,
It depends on the way the bulldlng ls set. We have one at Slrth and Lyndele
that faces Lnward, and so that you ar€ seelng, fron tro neln streets you are seelng
one sLde, and the other ls the rear.
Donrt you th-ink that rould be rmch more ettrectlve coning frorn ! here, lf
you uere to see the front of that bui J.ding lnstead of the slde.
The bulldlngs are very attrectlve now, and there 1111 be brick on a1-1 lr sldes.
That ls a drarlng rlght there,
Are all your bulldings the same sl-ze?
No
otherrlse, lf you rere to acqulre some rnore property snd
the bulldlng uould be the seme slze?
The buildlng would be the sene slze. That ls the size thet re are using
and have been for several years. Other than chenging the exterlor looks of 1t
and dresslng lt up inside etc., the slze would renaln the same.
I€t ,ne say one thlng. ManJr meny of the Happy Chefs use a
great deal less sq. footage of property very suecessfully. A 1ot less square
footege then we are talklng about using here. We cen get by wtth
square footage end successfully operate rlthout eny confuslon.Iflth
adJolnlng poople.
-2-
The baslc question tonlght, re have, I thlnk, debated everything, would be
whether or not the council- would be agreeabLe to, 1. a 1ot sp11t wlth lot 1 -
so xe nake sure we cfert fy everythlng.
Ir11 telL you hor we got into this. We orlglnally went to Herb Bloomberg beceuse
he was the head of the Hn e, end hed a blg investnent in the town. We sald, Herb,
werve got thls plan ln nind. What do you think about lt? He had absolutely no
obJectlons. Thatrs hor rre got sta"ted. He knew thls property. He knew the slte.
He ianew the story. He knew the beckground of lt etc. Hls attitude ras flne.
It blends 1n with rhat I felt.
It nould seen to ne that rhl1e you have I courses to fo1lor, 1t rouLd seern
thet the flrst order of buslness rould be to take up the questlon of rhether or not
based on the representetions nade here tonlght, lncluding the slte pLan and all of
the other matters that have be6n dlscussed, whether thls concept of a lot sp1lt ls
acceptable to the councl1. In other words you are, roul d be givlng approval to e
replat undet the subdivl slon ordinence, and in rry interpretatlon thls rorld requlre
a lr/5ths vote. Your ectlon should be accompanled by your reasons for your actlon.
I would 1lke to heve them set forth In detalI. Coupled rith that ls of course the
condltlonal use per:nit under cBD zonlng, but before you cen !ee11y get to that you
should deal l.dth the 1ot spllt lssue ln nry vlew, agaln settlng forth your reasons
for rhatever actlon you nay take, and the noratorlun ls also a part of lt. You
have three actions, but one can detennlne af1 of them.
Alrlght, then I agree lr.lth the attorney. The flrst ltan I think wa should
conslder would be the 1ot spllt. A rnoti on irould be ln order elther to approve or to
disapprove a 1ot sp1lt for lot 1, Ilontler Developnent Park.
Based on the pLan as subndtted by the developer, Davld
I dontt know that lt ls lt ls not deted or cerblfled as to
prepaled it
February 8, l:9?9 entltled Proposed lot Subdlrlslon, that|s lrhat I have. Thls
ls the proposal.
The floor ls oPen'for a notlon.
Tr11 nove for a subdlvlslon of Lot )., Frontler DeveLornent Park, based on
thls p1ot.
Yourll rnove for the epproval of this?
fs there a second to the motlon?
Second.
Motlon hes been noved and seconded. Is there any frrrther discusslon?
state
DICK:
JOIIN:
DAI,E:
DICK
-3-
The FI11 poLl the council at the tlme they vote, they cen
their reasons for votlng the rrey they so choose. Dlck,
f vote no. I vote no because based on what ras presented by th6 HRA and
as e entrance of Chanhassen, I feel thet tro bulldings on thls one
parcel ls not rithln the splrlt In whlch that HRA approval was given and
accepted. It ls too mrch on too llttle.
f vote yes. I thtnk thet theBe obJectlons can be overcone rith approprl ate
reworklng. I en not satlsfled $lth that partlcular proposal, but thet ls not
the lssue et this polnt 1n tlme. I believe that the subdlvlsloi ls a reasonable
solutlon to a ve:1r touchy problem.
Councllnan Gevlng votes no. W feeling on thls ls that thls Is the entrance
to the clty of Chanhassen. It vlolates one of the very basic plattlng
atrangements for zonlng lots rith 2 parcels. l,ly vote Is ln confonnance with
the spIlt 1n the plannlng conml ssion trere they voted 3 to 3. I feef that
there ras a hlstorlcal lntent on the origlnal plot of thls 1and, for one
business on this piece of property, and that frotrl s perBonel standpolnt I
do not know at thls time what that property ls golng to look Llke ln several
years to cone es we further det'elop that comrelcla1 erea. I feel very
uncomfortable rlth the proposal with the amount of asphalt, buildlng space
and the lack of green space whlch I have always been very mrch 1n favor of.
Untll I see a different plat and dlfferent deslgn of thet erea rith nore
erea to work wlth, I 1111 contlnue to vote no on thls proposal.
I vote yes, but agaln I em votlng yes - I feel thet these varlous lots that
are ln the Frontier D€veloFnent Park should end very 1lkely 1111 be, and I
feel plobebly should be, nodlfled. I do not think that this deslgn and
proposel of 1959 ras necegsarlly etched ln stone as re sald befo"e. I think
a lot of thlngs, and lrnprovenents on that pertl cular developrent can be nade
to the beneflt of the commrni.ty as e whole, erd therefore I feel that we could
dlvide tt lf re want to.
I vote norbaslcally because I 8rn ln agreertent rlth Council Gewlng and
Councllrnan Matthews. I think that rh1le loL lines can be changed, I thlnk
the lntent here Ls to change thls partlcular 1ot 11ne dranatlceLl-y froil rhat
was enrlsioned 10 years bsek. f feel" lt is a definlt€
of the use on the property, and Hhlle xe heard several statements tonlght
on how buildlngs such as these going ln ln srleller size dlfferent locations,
I think all of that ls tenpered by rhere the slte 1g. As I an sule everyone
-L-
ln the audlence heard tonlght, we referred tjme and agaln to thls partlcular
parcel belng the gateray to our clty. The develotrrent here ls very near end
dear to us. It ls so,rewhat dlfferent than a conrmerclal area rr?rere you rnlght
heve a vacant lot. Everythlng else ls developed snd you put something 1n. Agaln,
I donrt feel uncornfortable rlth looklng at changlng these hlstorlc lot llnq but
I thtnk to take then and cerve then up ln this wey is contrary to the rray I see
developnent In that part of totm.
Motlon fails.
I donrt thlnk we made eny motlons as to how thls sould
l,!!. Mayor, the councll end we want to thank
you for your t1ne.
We want to thank you for your tine too, and re hope your1l be beck to see
We Just told your ettoraleys that I dontt think we are that far epert. It is
not sonething that 16 are phllosophlcally opposed to.
Itern No. lr, 5 year cepltal lrnprovement program - adoptlon of park and
recreatlon conni sslon budget.
Do you have a copy of the budget that ls basicelly the sene as you have
seen before. There fl€re rerrlslons at the last Park and Recreatton Cornisslon Meetlng.
I am not sure - there are members of the Perk Conunlsslon here thls evenlng. To the
best of my knorJ,edge lt represents thelr nost current actlon. IYen CsLlehan ls here
as weII, should the council have quastlons.
I thlnk the maln thlng, Donrf ltBBt**""n you, Joe erld tr"ran, soneone has got
to hrelk thls through, lrhat 1s dlfferent than $hat relooked at 2 weeks ago. IIIi{
F!an, do you went to do that? I thlnk you knor the reesons xhy the change s
cane about. Hhy donrt you Just note lrhere the chenges rere.
Just the chang€s do you rant ?
Just the changes slnce the lest tlne.
Okay, ln the, there ere a fer changes ln the 1979 coLurur from the last lten
1t shows seedlng ln ].:9?9 as $90O - thet should be $300. Current expenses of $60O.
That ls 1n the Western Hl11s Playground.
Western Hi11s park ls changed from seeding frcrn $90O 7n 1979 lt vas $300.
The current years expense ts $600 1n 1979.
I thlnk that was the only one that rre had
I thlnk we have edded the boerdr,slk there, dldnrt you
Thetls ner
'rre added the bosdralk, fle changed the total on that to $9Or0OO, fron
$901600, because we reduced the reduction hes ebeedy been changed
up above on the lest one here. Is thls the one they heve, the $1500 ln there Don?
This one says revlsed 2/22/79.
Yes, we have the 2/22/79 revlston ln fro nL of us and nothlng e1se.
Opposlte seedlng ln l,{esterTr H111s, does it say $1500?
TotaL thls area expenses $90O.
Ihen it has been adJusted on yours.
Boardwelk ras a nen ltem
You want to loon the changes, under Wester,n Hl11s Park, seeding where lt
shows $!oo, used to read S1500.
OkaY.
So they decreased that by $50o. They took that $600 and put lt down and
created a new one ca1led Boardralk. So the total there stays the sane.
under Horse Ring, lt Is stlI1 shom In the overall plcture, but lnstead of
showlng aB generaL park acquisltlon, 1t ls shorn as a futule referendum, so Just
the descriptlon portlon there ls changed.
That ls dorm In Iake Arun Park, towards the botton
CouLd we slol, dorrn Just a litt1e bit - I rent to ask a question on
l^Iestern H111s. In :I9',19t we are golng to do sone central stn-rctures. ldhat ls golng
ln there?
That Ls that control structure. Central should sey controL'
OkaY.'
Then everythlng stays the sane under Iake Ann Palk except how the Horse
Rlng rould be funded, agaln that used to be under General Park Adqulsltlon, and
nos lt 1s put under referendun. Qlrestlons on any of those?
Whatyouaredolngrltlookstonellkeyoueretaldngcurrentyears,and
puttlng therd together.
Rea11y the same.
Except you got an extra $1rOOO for lnstance on nalntenance '
rftehaveectua].lyspentthenone}under19?E,thenltwouldnltgoforward.
For exemple, under Tree Progran Ranoval $1rooo, end Replecement $1oo' Those are
1
reaLly done. The fenclng the baLl dlanond, $2500. That ls done. Thatrs gon6.
That was spent.
That was spent ln ?8?
In 78.
So we are actually taldng ?B and 79 and
For the most part there nas very 1Ltt1e done ln 19?8. Most of whet ras shorm
under Curent Iear ExpendLture rr111 go forrard lnto 79. There are fen exceptlons
trhere we actually nade those expendltures. Agaln the fenced ball dl smond, y€ dld
spend that $2500 for the second fence In 19?8. That money Ls gone. we are
proposlng $3500 for the thlrd end flnal fenci.ng 7n 1979.
The last Itai, Don, e:dsting acreage and develognent - under 79,80, 81 etc.
w?rat do those flgures Dpresent? the $35rlr0or wtrat ls that going to buy?
Thet ls all on the Lnterest payment on lsle Ann Park. That ls your debt
servlce paynent on the exlsting facl11ty.
Under Chanhessen clty ha1l , okay, hockey 118htlng,
where lt shows the $8500, ttre total of the , it used to have $7OOO under 79.
Norc lt shows $lrOOO for 78, $3000 for 79.
You spent the $b000
We didnt t spendl the fu1l $lr00o, Flan, do you knor r.rhy lt was shown ,
why did you srltch lt?
The Ir000 plus that the prerl ous year rre had sone noney ln 78-77 - sone money
to be expended, see the total contract or the llghtlng out thele cost $5380. The
totel of the electricel and the flxtures, and the poles erd everythlng. The total
blI1 cane ln 8t $6380, so the belanee was taken out of what furds rere aval1ab1e
plus the balance out of the general obligatlon bond money.
So lt ras $lrJ
S3r0O0 for 1979 ls it. That neans that is rhat we vould be talldng about.
The remalnlng portlon is gone.
Other ehanges rouLd be to put in the snourts for the - startlng rlth
hockey rink replacement $lr0o0; tennls court resurfeclng $3r0OO; light courts
phase 2 $5r0O0; rlnd scroen $1r0O0, &nd I Suess sorne of those vere actually
p)-ugged ln. For exarnple, the prewlous hockey rlnk replacemrent ras
scheduled for 1980. Now that is ln 1979. The tennls court
It should be ln 1980, that ls vhere rre put lt
The rlnk teplacernent end the resurfeclng both
-7-
We donrt heve enYthlng
ft should be there, lt should be $3000.
You see they got the tennt s court resurfaclng over 1n 19
its not on the new one that re Just got.
You dld not uant lt off.
No, rre want It on ln 1980, $3OOO.
$3OOO lor tenni s court resurfaclng.
That wont work.
Okay, so $300O should go back ln for tennls court resurfaclng under 1980'
The $3000 above fo! hockey rlnk replacement that I ehow ln 19?9 should go over
lnto 1980. OkaY.
Hofl about Light court, Phase 2?
Phase 2 f have shom 0 for the ! year progran'
How about your current yeer? You spent money thls year - 78
So that ts $5r@0 that ls golng to cone maybe ln the next ! years' okay'
$1rOOO for hockey wlnd screen rhlch should be shorm ln 1982' Okay'
For nhatever reason, the copy I get shoved the - r?llch one dld f Just get through
saylng - ten:ri s court "esurfecing cddng off, and the problem there is you are not
golng to be able to fund both of thern durlng that portod of tlme ' I donrt loow lf
I should - lf you go back to sheet 8-6, thls tlme Irve got thern 1abe1ed, l'7-'2r)t
lr that goes all the vay through, and then B-1r2r)r\t5r6 - do you flnd 8-6' okay'
Now under that you l{il1 see the hockey replacanrent, $3r00O shom ln J9' okay'
We are se)ring ue should put that 1n 1980. Okay. T dId have that ln 1980' The
problem there ls lf you look doun at the totaI, the total s,Itount of money aval.l'abIe
shows $22r0OO. Your total resources are $22rOO0' At thet polnt I swltched the
hockey replacement to 1979 because et thet polnt ln tine, as you can see now, yourre
got $201500 ln ?9, and total revenue of $20r5oo' I donrt - lt doesnrt natier - I
donrt cere where the prlorlty portlon cones ln. l'fy polnt is, you are not going
to have a double $3rOOO. You are going to have to flx one or the other' or move
one of thern lnto for exsnple 1981, there ls unallocated $16'000' One of those
tlro programs - one of thern should go to 79, and one of thern should go to 81' I
donrt know uhere you want to plck then.
Ithlnkweshouldbesonerhatflexlbler.lththetenniscourtresurfaclng
because it ls the klnd of thing that you donrt reaIly know lt ls golng to need
doing In a certaln year, dependlng on , vtethe!
-8-
You can put it ln the earllest year then, and
So if that ls the case, then
Iooldng at I donrt understand rhy you have got landscaplng and
shrubs a priorlty over something that we rnlght conslder, 1lke the lrater fountatn
I think ls prlorlty No. 1 ln Chanhassen eletnenterJr , and sonebody has totally taken
Ah tvlg.
8-6, page I - sater fountaln $3OOO
I see water fountaln ln 1929.
I donrt thlnk the 11nes are up there, ere th6re? fs that the
problem?
They have landscaplng and shnrbs posted ln 82 and 79.
Chanhassen clty lrrl* elenentary you ere shorlng lnprovlng the balL
field for 19?9 - $3OOO. Landscaplng end shnbbery ls ln 1982 for $30O0.
ft shorrs ln 79
$8oo 1s for
The total expendlture was $3r0O0 belng spent ln 1979
and $3000 belng spent ln 82. I suspect the water fountain got ln the rrong 1lne
Irve got lt on the wrong 1lne
The $3OOO for 79 ls the lrater fountaln
Thatrs 79
Letts stop for a ninute - Irm confused. No rise crecks.
Does the Park Corndsslon put these flgures ln where they want then, or has
the staff put the flgure s 1n rhere they sant thern. I an hearlng two thlngs. Joe?
we work wlth
tald.ng a sectlon, end rerorliLng the rest
trt ls not done by anlr nechanlzed procedule, hene6 lt ls open to typlng erors, etc.
We heve recelved back the A-1 sectlon Just recently
fould e fetr nlnor corrections
The ltems you are taLlil,ng about and looldng at tonight are thlngs that we have
not covered at our neetlng. They should be
f think
I guess I am unconfortable the ray I look at somethlng 11ke
-9-
Put the 11brary $here It belongs, the city ha1l, rrttere 1t belongs, publlc
rorks rlhere lt belongs, flre department rrhere 1t belongs, aJtd I cen see
all these areas that we are bullding belng used alnost
of capacity through this transltlon perlod.
One thing that I nlght edd 1s that you as a councll person nlght bounce
thls off your fel1ou tnernbers and the nayor, and Just use this and
because
Just say, tt tt klnd of a ninl-status report
It ls a pretty crltlcaL thlng rlght he!e. We sre esteb:l.lshlng a dlrectlon that
et least ls a consensus at this polnb. We are not precluding shorlng enyLhlng else,
we rl11 shon 1t
lt 1s irnportant. Since 1t ls such en irnportant questlon, other councll persons and
the nayor may have I different
It nlght be helpful at the neetlng to heve sone proJected cost flgures for
new constructlon - Plan A requires a certaln anrount 2O,0OO sq. ft. of
eventually a clty hel1 buJ.ldlng city ha1l w111 soon have to
be constructed baslcaLfy for that eventuel usege. X anount of dollars per square
foot as opposed to sonethlng
faci1lty. If we have sme of thco flgures lt mey help uB
That brings up another polnt
COUMUNITY FACILITIES }METING OF )/7)/79 (ROUOH DRAFT) TAPE 1
Pass out an agenda, start thet around the rootn , etid then to sone of the
people that
A1, I donrt know if you got en anended sehedule. There Is a schedule
I donrt know lf you uere here for the last one. Dld you get one of theae last tlne?
The updated schedule -
No, I thlnk I got
0h, okay, thatts the updsted one that rre used et the lsst neetlng and Don
had ssked that, we net when ras lt, Wednesday of last week, and went over thls. Let
ne Just klnd of - the firgt iten here on the schedule really ts Just an update, and I
thlnk it ls prlnarlly an update for - frn sorry, your nane 1s Jack Jager - I should
get that one - Irrn Jack Boarnan. Fo, Al and Jack and sone of the rost of you. As
far as the schedule is concerred, re 8re proJectlng a referendum Novenber 6, and
right at this polnt in tlme re are spending thls last part of Wlnter and the Sprlng
golng through some organizatlonal plannlng declding rhat ls the bost way to establlsh
the needs and also to neet rith sorne cormunity group s and hopefully meet irlth as lerge
a segment of the conmunity as posslble to balance off sone of the ldees that we are
developing, and also to obtaln ldees. I thlnk that ls a 1ot of rhat tonlght ls as
far as the schedule is concerned, rhere we are at rlght nor up here ln arch, ls xe
are hevlng rhat we ce11 e $m11 conmunlty or sna11 gloup neeting, and re intend to have
several of these ln the next two to three months. But stel.tlng out baslcally fron
what has been constdered a concerned participant group, well the llbrary ls of
obvlous concern, city staff, and ne flre departrnent
because of the close sdJacerby of everyone vielng for the sane spece' end the needs
thet are proJected for the future. Anyrray, thle i3 the flrst of the sna11 group
neetlngs, and the lntent is to go over some of the options thst eeen to be feasible
as to ho.w to deal wlth the anount of space that ls proJected to be needed. I an
going to have a couple thlngs that probably we went over befote, but I would Just 1lke
. 11 lhLs nee-tlng we hope, our next neetlng 1lke this 1111
be expanded. It rliI1 lnclude thls 8roup, but I hope lt wl1l lnclude people fron the
resldent conurunlty, North, south, East end dest, fanl11es, non-farnlly nernbers, etc.
blusiness people from dorntovn, and concerned cltlzens at large as a klnd of
representatlve meeting of dlfferent lndlvlduals fron dlfferent type s of groups ln the
colrurunlty. ]/'Je 1111 probably heve one or two more of those between non and the end
of April. l.Je posslbly ri11 be sendlng out a questlonnaLre to the public at large to
bounce some ldeas togpt scxtle lnput, and rre al.so antlclpate that between notr
end the end of ay we are trlrlng to declde I'hat ls the best thjng to present fron
the standpolnt of how nnlch space ls needed, where mlght 1t be bullt, whet the
-2-
combinatlons nlght be, where 1t ls golng to be locaied, and then this sunrner ree11y
dealing w"lth how to prepare the naterials to present that to the ccmrunlty in the feII.
In the fall, startlng August, September, October, haring pub[c hearlngs havlng
referendum Lnfor:nation ln llterature that presents the fects, outllning the need for
the space, how that need wl11 be satlsfled, and to enguer the three baslc
questlons. What ls lt the city needs? lihy do they need 1t? HOr nuch ls it golng to
cost each taxpayer? Those are the baslc questions. Most people will vote
for soirething ln that what ls being proposed ls 1ogica1, that the
need that 1s being proposed can be substantlated, end they heve to make as lndividuals
an assessnent of rhether or not the noney ls worth lt. So tonlght whet we are trylng
to do 1s go over a couple of thlngs that we rent over at the last meetlng. We
presented on thls agenda, we got some resolution on Itens 1, 2 end J under A. We
sdopted thls schedule. We rewlewed the populatlon proJectlons for the cormunlty, and
the reason we tevlewed that ls that reell-y forms a good basis for projecting the
ernount of space. We looked at conperative clties, rhat other cltles are dolng,
and uhat thls clty ri1l be dolng ln the future. Then re mede sone assuned space
requlrenents. f would Just 1lke to hit on the approved aspects of poprlatlon and
spece.
Rlrst, fron e rerier of the metropolltan councllts growLh proJectlon for
Chanhassen and B other slmller clt16s, end those citles oln projecti.ons of thelr
orn populatlon gro$Lh betveen nor and the year 200O, we prltnarlly keyed ln on the
years 1!$0, 90 and 2OOO. ,,ie came up wtth some averages end some proJectlons for
Chanhassen that baslcally go llke thls: In 1968 thls epprove end growth of
approxlmately 6100. By the year 1980, the proJectlon seerned safe, and we checked
this 1978 to 1980 span has been Looked at aLso frcrrr th6 standpolnt of houslng
starts and what is proJected for the next 2 years for houslng starts and that type
of thing, and it ts a proJected grorLh ln 1980 of 7lt\6 - 75OO roughly. Then a
proJected growLh ln l99O of 1.lrr1lr8, or 1lrr 200 lets say. Then by the year 2000, the
proJected groyth of about l-9r80o. Nor, this ls lorer than the grorth proJections
that were presented at the Last referendun. It ls higher then the netropolttan
council proJectlon. Baslcally, this is the ray its gone in all ccnmunltles, not
a1l but ln a 1ot of connruniti.e s, the l,tetropofltan Councll has been lower than the
comnunltles own asaessrnent, revenue sharlng, and those types
of thlngs, but Just looklng at the mount of grorth betrreen 1970ard 1978 ln the
conp&ratLve citles, sone of those have been subgtantleted, and we compared to Woodbury,
Eden Pralrle, Maple Grove, Chaska, Apple Ve11ey, Shakopee, Fore sL Lake and Rsnsey, and
other cltles thet have sfudlar terrltorlal areas. Thls Forest leke lnc luded the clty
and tomshlp, so we trled to look et slmller terrltorlal areas, slmller cormunitles
-)-
that had In sone way or another some establlshed center 1lke you have here. So
evet'Jrone pretty nuch felt that the grorUh proJections rere not as blg es lt tttlght be,
but not that conservatlve elther. Now, based on our own expertence in worklng rrlth
clty haus and librarles end what not, and pubIlc uorks fecl1ltles, we rere able to
take the anount of populatlon that we sar, rork that up lnto tenrs of so nany clty
empLoyees per thousand, and then look at so nuch square feet per staff person ln
elth a publlc r.orks, clty halL or llbrary facl1ity, and then were able to determlne
sone proJected square foot demands hooked lnto 1980, 1990, and 2000.- Now, right n_ow
the clty has approxinately 7500 squale feet of spece. Approxlnately 3000 of city haI1
spCoa-e alone ln thls bul1dlng, a Ilttle blt less than 30OO on both levels. Thet 13
gross are&.All these are gross areas. They lnclude nechanlcal as well as
Ev6-ntfrfng. The pub llc works has about 11800 ln-the-site west of torn. Nor by the
year 1980, 1t ls assumed that totel - approxlnately - looldng at what 1t should be,
1t should be about)-or 500, atd lt is actually about 81000. So it ls easy to see, et
-r.eait- it is easy for ne to see rlght now you can easily see that 1f thls city haI1
had 1500 squa1.e feet more 1t yould probably firncti on a 1lttle better for all parties
concerned, LncJ-u ding the flre department I an sure. But anyuay, so if they are short
right off the bat, by 1980 the pub]lc rorks as the and streets and as the
city grows, that departurent is golng to have to grow. clty ha1I ls also grofllng,
so by 1980 there ls a proJected clty ha11 space requi rtttlent of 58oo square feet'
There ls a proJected publtc works - I hava sorne extra coples, before I pass this
out some notes fron, sonebody got thls et the 1&st neetlng, but -
an)nayrsobytheyealggortherelsapotentialspacedenandatci'tyhellof
j12!9r,pfur1c sorks o-f J5,OO0 end a l-lblarv eL U,'97o' ana/l6ooZlE"rd be th,000
for city ha11, 21roOO for public !9I'!8, end 6,930 for 1tblary- So looklng at the
1--980, 1990 and 2000, looklng at those three lncrsnents, a total space de'rnand of 16 1925
for pub).lc work8, lIbrery 8nd clty ha1I for 1980. 1990 you lrould have ebout 30r00o
and 2,OOO, a total of those three of about lrl rOOO or L2r0O0. Nor, that reelly doesnrt
edd.ress the fire departments denends at all. I thlnl( what has been addressed ls that
at a nlnlrnrm of there rould be a trangltlon to move thl-S space out
of here, and thls apace turnlng over to the flre departnent. Beyond 1980, lets sey
1990, wel-I that gets lnto your depertment r s proJectlons ebout rr11l" they be needlng
a satelllte facllity, wtlI lt elso have to have training spece r work space, and
wh&t srea of the conmualty night thet go ln. Woul"d that go north and rest, as has
been stated a posslbillty of, and there rea11y hasnrt been very much lnput on the
flre departrent. I think that ls s([nethlng we are Just slnply asklng a question.
Where do you see ihe flre department going
-L-
I thlnk lf you talk to any resldent that 11ves ln the Iake Nlnnora 8rea,
they rt11 say 1990 lsnrt too far away. They rt11 te1l you that noY 18 to
\/ build that statlon out there. f havenr t seen anybhlng as far as eny York e on th13
buildlng lf the clty noves out. Thls bulldlng ls 1n no shape for us to ti'ke eny
useofit.Therelsnoroondounhereforusrrrrecanlttralndomh6reruecantt
do anybhing. The upstalrs is all offlces, it ls no good for any neetlngs that re
could use. There would heve to be money spent on that' There ls nothlng ln here
lf the donntorn developnent ls 8o1ng uke they are tel-klng, there ls no plans for
housing ladder trucks, we would have to expand the bulldlnc for that' we ere
plaruring on going to the city councll to lncrease the nurnber of volunteers' That
mears [ore sPace for tralning.
So you ere saylng thet lf thls butldlng uere veceted' lt rould have to be
renodeled to gult Your needs'
t
It would hevo to have scmethlng done to make lt useble'
But somethlng could be done to rnake lt useble'
Oh lrn sure
AndlSther€theexpanslonpot€ntlelforanotherapparatus
on the other slde of the tUo you already got? Is there roottl there?
No, I donrt thlnk there 1s - I thlnk the orlginel Plens lere for us to build
satteLlte statlons and probably house the ladder truck uP here and take rater pumpers
and a tenker end one of the rescues to a sattellte stetlon'
Jack, thenks
How do you, ln the voluntoer flFe depsf,tnent hox do you etaff a statlon that
lrould make lt nore efflclent than another atea' rould make 1t role efflclent than lf
you take e truck drlve then uP there?
We11, first of all, Ird sey thet before you bulld a statlon you shoufd have
fi"6nen ln that area. f knol. Eden Ftelrle has Just bullt 2 nore stations end I
Imow around some of thelr arees they donlt have
whtchisnotevenenoughtomanetl'uck'andlthlnkldonrtlorowwhy'buttheir
stations ended up about 2 or 3 nl1es fror the naln one' Maybe lt uas because they
had property end money, ard so on' l'{aybe I could be $rong' but ln the lnnenashta
erea you rnlght not have anlrone that' pertlcularly durlng the dayLlne ' ln the evenlng
lt nlght not be so bed. I{e heve 2 day men end 2 nlght nen out 1n the lnnerashta erea
rlght now, and I would 1lke to see nore fron that aree' but 1t 1e e long uays frorr
here and they ale naturelly not as lnterested' They are not around lt es mrch'
t
-5-
We do heve 9 nenbers of the fire departnent 1Ive rlthtn 1 block of the station.
Thle Is real good. True, rherever you bu11d e statlon, lt should be looked at as 1t
should be in a resldentlal erea i,hefe you can nan the statlon in a hurry. r am sure
that we w111 end up, I thlnk lt rri1l end up some pleco ln the
area soneplece. I thlnk on thls slde of the Lake probably, towards the north end.
The tark of this eomdttee orlglnal)-y *as flrst out of the
enangenents rtth the county 1lbrary system and the requlrements to supply space to
them, and the needs here at the clty he11, and out of the needs that the clty steff
ploJected for pub11c works. I thlnk norr as ue have looked at it more, lt ls
beglnnlng to grow a l-ittle bit, but lt rea1Ly has to lnclude the flre departnent'
beceuse $hatever heppens that rnlght affect the clty ha11 would affect thls space,
and that would naturally rnean thet you vould be talldng about a ner uscr' and lt
is dlrectly adJolnlng the flre departrrent. fn one of the rery flrst rneetlngs re had
we dlscussed who and hon should the lnvolvenent be developad to brlng more people in'
You know, especlelly those that rere dlrectly lnvolved ln space needs as lt relates
toprorrldlngserv-lcetothecomflunity.Ithlnkthlsls!,hyyourc@llentsabouthow
lt affects thls bulldlng and sone of the thlngs we are golng to propose tonlght ' I
thinkt,,lllbedlrectlyaff€ctlngho{youseeyourParticula"groupgrowlngandhou
you see your bulldlng affect the conrnrnlty as lt relates to hov these other
comnunl ty asp€cts, publlc works, clty ha11 and l-lbrary get located' Nor the'
whatwethendldonceweestabllshedthebeslcbackbonelspublictorks'cttyha11
and 11brary, whlch pretty tnuch evolved frorn what the orlglnal study task ras
Iunderstandcomnlttee,andthentheflredepertmentthengetstiedlnto
it, but what we have done ls sald that based on the population and here ls the
schedule,weJustwentthroughsonepopulatlonproJectlonsthathelpedusdeterrnlne
howrnuchspacelsneededDilleincityhall,publicUorksandllbrary,andthen
ue could fill thls ln and estebllsh sone space denands '
nlght be needed. Nolr, ih once re had establlshed some baslc space needs and then
trled to proJect those ln the future and I have always reconmended fron our back-
ground ln worklng rlth conmunitles, that you can proJect falr1y well for a 10 yeer
perlod. But you should leave your optlons oPen beyond that' You should nake
proJections, but understand that you hav€ to have the f1e:<1b111ty to change then
and to modlfy them because thlngs change ' So re then took the anount of space as
just sornewhat of an aasumPtlon
space and Presentlng varlous o
clty mtght fuIfill lts sPece.
staff and Don last WednesdeY,
end sald that, rrhet optlons do we have for bul ldlng
ptlons to the people re were talking to on hor the
We developed end revlewed thls rlth sone of the
and these 5 option reaLly rhet ls shown uP hereS
inthesedrawlngs.TheyarebeslcallyJustglouplngsofspace,howyourouldc ornbine
IIIJI pLro 'a8e.re8 s)tJoA cllqnd aq? PuB 'rolcadsul Bu1p11nq (3u1uue1d 'SulJaau1Sua
r(l!c e^BLt ar aJaqa 'poonaldeq uT peqsTuTJ lsn[ I tuTplTnq eql 01 TBITUITS 'r(.raa s1
uolldolaql.acualradxa,sIt[oJJ?sBaIlBos.aslaaJal{Aeuross^oulptIBlnoaseqd
o1 sBu1q1 ,tste 1ou a:a 'sr(rq 1.rot't '1s1oq ngt8ulpllnq s1'ror'r c11qnd B oguT oE
lBqt s8ult{l 1o adfl aq1 asn€caq s1 uo11do a1e:ades r 3u1aq 1Bql roJ uosEeJ aql AoN
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c11qnd asaqd put eulpllnq aqt PIInq - y ;:o allsoddo aql sT lBqJ' 'lllnq aq plnor
aJnlcrl;+s rieu B pur 'sa.rB auos ol al1s s1'rort c11qnd aq1 '€gJE auos 01 palBcolaJ
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luau4.radap aJTJ aql pw 'ap1s reqloue
uo s{JoA c11qnd raau e pua 'ap1s auo uo -(:arq1l Pu€ IIBq r(11c nau a 61 3 uoTldg
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aql Jo Epaau uolsuedxa eurBs aq? ulBlulBtu o1 Arl auros ?no lJoll aull Jo po1:ad u 'raao
Jo r[IJatuT aq? uT JaqtTe pur sallTIIcEJ ,tJ8rqll ptr8 IIEq r(11c a'rour JoJ 8u]plTnq 6]q1
o1 uo puadxa 01 aq p tnor'r uo11do 1tq1 '11a14 '.f,lTIIcBJ ,tr"JqII B ItBq '(tIc aq1 ap po'rd
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lBql stulqt autos er? araql puB 'papuedxe eq plnoc SufpfJLq,--qfq+ rtl{usrJ a1lnb 1rq1
lou 1Er{A pue sueld a1I6 EuIop .,tq lno 1I patsal a aq el{ .pouracuoc s1 uolsuedxa se
JaJ sB SuIpIInq slql o1 uaddeq plnoc lBqt s8uTql IeuoT?IppB auos ara aJdq? '1snf s1
1I 'pa8ueqc uaeq lou sEq lEqJ '3u1p11nQ slql la8 plnoi ,taql ,t11e11p1 '1uaur1'redap
arTJ aq? Jo flIIIqBITB,rs aceds IBIITuI aq1 sa 3u1p11nq 8Iq1 q11ll llBep umpuaJaJaJ
aulBs lBq1 ?Bq? alrnssB I 'oBE s.rea,( $ lnoqa unpuaJaJeJ tlrr aql uT Jaqla8ol lnd
qanrir f11a.rd sBA ?Bq1 noN 'a'ri-rni
aql uT aull auos lutrplTnq ,i,au reqlouE,-o1u1 tulp!1nq lBql Jo 1no acads q'1pt ,{111rct,;
s{ron c Tlqnd B q?I.!,r EuTpITnq 6{JoA c11qnd pue ,trEJqII '11eq ,t11c pauiqiroc e -siEG
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t.raqlaEol ..trBrqTI aql pue acads pelcafo.rd 141o1 aq1 ppe no.( .;1 'suulnloc OOOZ aq? uT
065I 01 O85I uI 11an '1noqt 8I qcTql ecads paumsse eril tuIIBl a.re euolldo asaql
"ot 'g -qf y 'suo11do 5 ees no,( epuata aq1 ug ',t114c13:1cads auo qcEa q8no;q1 c,t
uaq? puB 'rep.raao uI uraql alets {IJaIJq lsng IIIf, 1 'sluaua.rlnbal ectds cTEBq aql
-9-
-7-
be phased out ln about 10 yeers rhen they ere able to bul1d a new city halI and
tum the exlsting city ha1I over to the police departnent and have egaln a cordblned
city heI1, englneerlng, plannlng and bullding departnent. I have used that sone
other colru mltles a1so.
Optlon E 1s to bulld a new clty ha1.1, llbrary and pubHc works 8nd nove the
clty ha1). and 1ibrary to a nen building in the future. Irlhat f would Ilke to do, that
baslcally Ln verbage describes the 5 beslc things. I would 1lke to show that graph
Jack, cen I interrupt you for a s€cond? I rasnlt arare, but apparently
there ls one othet iten on the egenda tonlght. These gentlemen are $ith a band
who apparently is asklng approval from the Colnrunlty Facllltles Conmittee neetlng
to use the oId church. I didnrt even knon
they mlght want to take care of thet real quick, and then devote the rest of the
tlme llrtP t ena n)' 6
fiv,k- T'=.' 'rhatrs flne wlth me' '
'\1i-"11'
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How do you handle that nonna1ly, Nlck, do you knon? L"'1^
Thet lroul-d be ry Lnpresslon to, but they have been bounced back and forth fron
Park and Rec wlth !'ran back over here, so Don aPparently told then they ere
supposed to be here.
l'ihat klnd of band ls lt that
Just a band that rerve got. An lndividual band
four guys. The 18st place we prectlced
lle canrt use thet anynore, end ue telked to the church group
said lt wes okay, and we talked to Fran and he okayed
lt, end another guy okayed lt, and he told us to cone here end teII you about that
and then
Thl s is Just prectlce for e rft4 a rock and ro11 group, gultara, druns,
that type of thlng?
Yes, gultars end d::una.
I{or nany people?
Four.
,r\.r\,
-There lll1l1 be no danclng. I thlnk thet ls writt€n lnto th€ lease agreement,
thet there rI11 be no danclng on thele.
There F111 be Just us four Ird saY.
How often?
Probably about 3 or b tines a reek.
l{ou1d you store your gtuff donn there too?
Yes.
-B-
A11 our stuff ls lnsured and stuff, so
Can we have the po1lcy - ls there a pollcy fronr the councll for renting out
the church to an outslde organlzatlon?
I donrt thlnk there ls. I think there ls a lease agreelent $ith the church
rhlch klnd of danclng
I donrt knor rh at the
be sqne noneter1r conslderation lnvolved there.
pay that?
prepared to
You ere all forr frotr Chanhessen?
Ye s.
Psuty?
Yes
gultsr, Hhatever?
Yes
I donrt ree1ly know lf it ls free
Yourve got to charge them the sane thlng that you cherge everybody else
every tlme they use lt, so there agaln you have J nlghts a reek
three tlmes rhatever, cha,rge everyone e1se. It ls en outside group
coning ln for use of a pubIlc facl1lty.
!'lhet charge
We tal-ked to Fran 8nd Don who sald
electricity
Are you flexlble on the nlghts you practice? Because occaslonally someone
else has to use that space rhen
sonebodY else can
I donrt thlnk we ever dld. Of eourse, sone consideratlon
people that u3e
large group
We11, I donrt see how
then come ln as an outslde group and not treat them like anyone else conlng ln,
so people conlng ln, we donlt know but that
one nlght they nlght declde to brlng 1O of thelr frlends to slt around and Ilsten,
so nor youlve got 1lr ln there. We ought to have some reetrlctlon
pub1lc bulldlng
andyouaregolngtohavechargeeverybodythateonesintherethesamethtng.
-9-
We should h&ve some cost flgures lnvolved, and what lt does cost for 1Ights
to keep
for a:np1lflers, and things like that.
Does it requl re a 220 l-lne, or
No
It w1LI blow the church off of itsrs foundetlon
Hor manJr tlnes has lt been leased out before, or rented out before?
the chsrlorratlc group has pald a nmlnal amount of $20
a month or sonethlng like that to use lt once ot trlce a reek'
I know they use 1t at least once a week.
I gtress when you look at that group they brlng i'n people fron outside the
corrmrnlty and thts group is totally fron rlght in the conmunlty and they are
young peopl-e, and I guess ue heve glven a 1ot to dlfferent tlrpes of activltles for
young people, but I donrt think werve done anyLhlng for those that are mrslcally
lnclined, and f feel we should probably give then e trlaL perlod at a reasonable
rate, and 1f there ls no problerns 1et them continue, because to keep the young
people off the streets ls worth a 1ot of noney too'
I an wonderlng shen you get to the polnt where you get 7 or 8 of these groups
frcrn around the clty that lrant to practlce, and they all r'ant 3 nights a week'
f thj.nk we would have to ltrilt It ae to eny clty organlzed group
I think we would Just have to say that thls ls tt, werve got to have the space
that nlght
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*r* r*r, j;4rU.Z*ssroN ltecrrrc v5l?e TAPE 1. SIDE A
Does sryone have hls hand out here tn the audl{:qe tonlght? Baslca11y
what ltr. Gonnan end !'ran corntttee go throrlHtonlght ls
A. baslcally to re\rlew the last referendun as you people out here
see lt rrhat nent rrong, end what we should do dlfferentl,y.
Baelcally we ate looldng for the connunltyr s lnput tonlght.
l,lhy donrt re stert to lntroduce ourseLves eround the councll here.
Oely Eestbular
John
Pet BoyleI paul oi oett
Jack Formen
Would you people 1lke to lntroduce yourselves? lJe lanow roost of you, sone of
you we donrt.
Irn Jlrn , Sunrl se H111s.
Brlan Snelder
Jack Kreger, Chanhessen EIre Departnent
- Greenrood Shores
Dean - Cerer Beach
Mike - Carver Beach
Lois Elsloess -
Don Ashsorth - Clty Manage!
Dtck ConnelL - Chenhessen Estates
Uark Kogley - Clty Planner
l,lho would be out on e nlce sprlng nlght 1lke thls?
tJe11, re are golng to open up, lt 1s golng to be lnformal I guess. We world
ltke to knon lf you have any cotmrents, flrst of all, on the last referenduvtt?
We knor we had a referendurn nlxed rtth the llbrery-utt1lty bulldtng
for the four/ on that lest refer€ndun together? Pub11c Yorks-1lbrary-clty ha11-
on the one portlon, and then we had the poJ.lce portlor I
and I guess pretty rmrch a general thlng here thet the po11ce lssue
was the front runner, and lt detractedr lt tas a negetlve lssue and lt detracted
from the totel . Just ln tlne Nick.
Irve got another meetlng to go to, naybe I should go there eB long as you
grlys have
You canrt get a$ay that easy.
Is he golng to Joln us?
I donrt knor. tllck, ls your wlfe sick, or
As you know, rre have proposed the referendr:m here for ytl-lgenbetg 6/l)t
thls conlng fa11, end this tine It ls a slngle, well bastca11y lt ls a single
issue and that ls colnrrunlty facl11tles. N8ne1y, we are lncfuding the llbrary,
clty hau and public lrorks bulldlng. Those three, 1n not necessarlly that order.
-2-
At the last neetlng, I sasnrt here, hrt f have the notes, there ras ! optlons as
I recelI, whlch consl.dered verlous cqrblnatlons of these three facilltles, and
I an not sure lf they have thsL lnfometlon or not.
That ls part of what re are going to telk about.
Okay, so T an gettlng a llttIe &heed of nyself. Basically, re wouLd ltke to
go baek to A - progress and a rerrler of the last referendr:rn.
There ras attached rlth thts a schedule , yel] baslcelly outllnlng stren the
effort started and Just to glve, and before re rnlght op€n e dlscusslon about how
what thoughts you have about the problems wlth the last referendur. fn the schedule
there has been sdle actlvlty off end on betreen rryself as a consultent, ny flrm
has worked on several proJects that rere related to clty halls, pub11c vorks
facilltles, flre statlons, llbrarles, etc. and rre rere retalned to asslst the
conrunity to de sigrr I bulldl-ng, but flrst to work rlth the corranuntty to declde
hor the corrmunlty releted to the needs that the city and thls ccrodttee have
developed, and find e neens to rel-ete to the comrunlty, flnd out hou the
corununlty reacts to rrhat these needs are, 1n relatlon to a posltlve vote on a
referendr:n. So betneen &nd nor, Aprl1 5r there has been about 6
meetings of the cmnlttee, and the ccrnr/dttee slze and organizatlon hes chenged e
llttle blt, it hes grovn, some new peop1e have come on board, and ln the lnterln
betneen Decefiber and nor, sone of the things that have been developed ls prlrflarlly
a look at rrhat the space needs are, and how lt relates to other corr,mnLtl e s, and
how lt relates to Chenhessen, Then sone organlzatlonal plannlng Hhlch 1s shordn
as the No. 2 lten on Just rhat ls the best ray to go about developlng a posltlve
attltude ln the cormunlty about these facllity needs. I thlnk, et our last
neetlng, whlch was Merch 8 f be1leve, rre talked about some alterttative optlons,
and then tonlght is the flrst of a serles of very lnportant rneetlngs. Thege
neetlngs we thlnk are the backbone of getting the ronl out end getttng feedback
back about the type of thlngs that the communlty, that this csddttee f,eele is
needed for the corrnrnity 1n the way of pub11c works, and clty hel1 facllitles.
One lnportant aspect that f anr sure all of you are aware of lf the fact th t there
ls e denonstlatlon proJect here from the county 1tbrary systen. The de'rnonstratlon
rneetlng is here uatll the referendurn pesses, and I thlnk - nould you lntroduce
yourself egeln and telL us rrhere you are from?
lrm Iols Elskness, and frn fron Carver County llbrery Board.
Okay, and the, at that polnt I hope thet someHhat descrlbes the organlzatlon
of the last fer rnontha. One of the key steps ln that nas settlng the referendun
date for Novanrber 6. Nov I thlnk thet golng beck that probably ln an
overv-1-ew, one of the lnltlal thlngs that ras dlscussed ln the flrst coupls of
meetings of thls corndttee ras what happened? vlhat lrent l1t|ong? Hhat rere the
conpl-lcatlons? The physlcal space needs of pub1le rorks, the fLre depart'nrent,
IOIS F.
-)-
the 11brary and clty ha11 have not gone eway as r understand from telking trlth the
facllltles ccomlttee end yrth the clty staff. They heve only gotten rorse. At the
sane tlne, you knor, the clty on a about a 2 to 1 nargln, sald no last tlme. I
think that is why that lssue took up quite a blt of the first couple of neetrngs,
Just these 6 or 7 people here . Now ne want to get some other peoplers
attltudes about thls ltem A-1. l{hat happened last tine? Does ar5rone have any
thoughts ln relation to alnost anybhlng, how lt ras presented, what it f,es, how
it dldnrt lnclude naybe the flre deparfunent, and how lt had to cdrp€te rlth the
pollce lssue. Does enytody have any thoughts?
The polnt, and f hgve to adnlt that f nay not have the best perspectlve on
it, but r thlnk that there ras a nlnlmal lnformatlonal effort put forth as far
as dlstrlbutlng inforrnatlon about the needs of the comunlty, and rhat the
proposel consideratlons rere. I thtnk that a lengthler
educatlonal process has to happen. rt carrt be Just an ertlcle in the Herald,
and then 1et 1t go at that. There ls a m-rch greater n€ed to do lt on the basis
that thlngs have been done 1n nore recent tlm6s where representatlves of thls
body can get out to nelghborhood neetlngs end talk to the people that gather at
those sesslons. Even lf lt has to be a speelal nelghborhood rneeting called for
that toplc. There has got to be nore understandlng I thlnk on the part of the
peop).e who are votlng, as to xhat they are voting for. Sone of rry nelghbors, the
thing ln thelr nrLnds was, re1l 1t is morE taxes and re havenrt needed lt nov, and
rhy ere we going to need lt 1n the future. The fallure to realize that Chanhassen
is growlng, and that the denandg on the publlc servlces that the people are golng
to requl re are grorrlng. Therefore the facllltles to house those serrlces and those
con/vf;Btret8"8ntarge. In fect, f am very glad to see that the librery has found
a way to get in to the corununlty aslde frdn a referendun area. I thlnk that
In i.tself
I thlnk the ras rather . We didnrt have anJr
plcture of anythlng to look et, or eny flnal locatlon golng to put lt.
ft rres Just sonethlng that p€opLe voted yes or no for, and dldnrt even IGrfl
ballot
Does anyone thlnk thet havlng the two lssues on the ballot had an affect?
I dontt think there ls any questlon - Ln our associetlon, the only dlscusslon
that took place regardlng arry of the referenduns lest yoar was pollcg.
our caIIlng corrrmittees call, any of the hones, the only discusslon took place on
the sherlff, no lnterest et all - alnost an lndnedlete responslve no, rlthout
knowlng the lssue.
-)1-
Apparently one of the lraportant polnts also is the corblnstlon publi c works
buildlng as pert of the clty heIl, dld not neet wlth the faror of s 1ot of people.
trucks dowrtorn. ff yor are golng to bulLd a ptrblic works buildlng,
put lt out there on lr1, and bu[1d your clty ha11 here.
I donrt thlnk the tro shouLd be related that closoly. you donrt need to se€
that nachlnery around, you donrt 1lke to have lt palked ln other areas of the
c cnrnrnlty for varLous reasons, and r dontt thlnk lt rea11y belongs ln eonJunctlon
wlth ctty he11, f dontt fee1.
Irn not sure that too nany people could descrlbe what publlc irorks is.
Besides a rnetal- shed nor.
frn not sule that they larow that.
Thatt s a good polnt.
Thatls e very ,mportant polnt that you two gentLenen are meklng, and Later on
we want tor 'He have sonethlng that we can talk about that gets lnto that lssue
from a cost savlngs standpolnt, and we cerr brlng that up again. llhet ebout,
there was part of a dlscusslon at the last neetlng about other aspects of the
conrm:nityt s future needs, fire department, 10-L! years down the road. I vould
think the pollce lssue 5 or 10 Jrears dolm the road. The po11ce tssue rnight cone
up agaln as the ccnanunlty gets bLgger and blgger. Does enyone, was there ever
any talk about },hy this ls only dea]lng wlth Just the cLty hal1 and public works
srtd not taklng lnto eccount flre department, or cormrunlty neetlng serv-lces, or
anybhing of that nature ? Dl,d anytody hea? anythlng ln the past, or
Jack, as I recaLl at the tlnre, on a dey when that que8tlon dld cone up,
lt was exp).atned to us that thls bul1dlng ras orLglnally designed to be a flre ha11,
in lts tota1, and that thl s was a trainlng room dorn here rrra/Botouncll chantber
snd thlngs of that nature. But on an lnterln basls thls bulldlng has served
mrlti purpose3, and there ras an understandlng, ln my mind there was an under-
standing that thls rould then expand end becone the fu11 servlce flre departnent
facllity operatlng out expandLng the barns for the
garage area lf necessary, and that the real need other
I got rty letter but lrhen T csme here tonlght I read some of this
letter, so I dldnrt have a lot of chence to prepare for thls, but as f recall the
convetsatlons that took p1ace, f thlnk the It very clearly emes to mlnd
that the bulLdlng nay have defeated ltself through the pollce
deparfunent. As f reca11, nany corments yere lf ye dontt heve a pollce deparfuaent,
we donrt have to bulld e bul1dlng.
,
sone people rnlght of conffrsed that, confirsed the one needing the other one.
And e ttnor for our olrn, and go rrith the shertff neslrt that lre reelly dldnrt
need the space. I thlnk if you po11ed sone of the people you nay flnd that out,
lf you do sone in depth lnterYlewe.
One of the things that you probably saw on thls was a que stlormaire I s
survey, because re lntend to elther do a phone surtey, or to malI the survey'
Thatrs a prepared l-lst of senpl,e questlons to try and galn sone lnPut through that
nethod, a rnodlfled forrn keeplng lt slmple of course. We are trylng to see lf we
can get as mreh ln tonight as re can. Yes,
one coraent that touched on the needs a 1ittle more elabollatlon,
and that was, ln a 1ot of peoples nlnds, the questlon of why we need more
facl1ltles, and therefore nore tax expendlture. Irhy cenrt the erlstlng facllitleg
becone more efficlent? can r,,e get by rith the same ,nenpower? I thlnk that there
is a fallure 1n peoplers rnlnds to recogrlize the grorbh that ls happenlng out
here. Probably too, there w111 be a lot of houslng construction thls srrmer,
and the anareness wt1l start to come home. At 1ea3t, ln those nelghborhoods
thet are to the north of toun. There are going to be a lot of new homes eround
and about the existlng nelghborhoods, and that ls golng to nork ln the favor of
argulng the understendlng of the growth. But yourve got to handle thls questlon
of why tax money should go to enlarge a facllity that has handLed the conmunlty
nicely for x nunber of years. Yourve got to convlnce people that thelr tax rnoney
is buying sonethlng what ltrs expendlture.
one of the thlngs thet has been trlea fu,/8thifinftl es, thatrs typl cally the
flrst questlon, r?ry do we need lt? l'Jhet purpo se 1s lt going to serve when
werve seeningly sorved the purpose very l,elL over the past. sone cormunltl es
have tried a that slmply seys, Saturday norrllng from B t o 12 the
existlng facllitles are golng to be open. Ar1y one questlonlng as to shether
or not 1t 1s needed, there will be soneone at the facilltles to give you a walk
through. That i3 Just one tool that I havenrt had a chance to rnentlon to you yet,
that might be used here, because had you nalked through this facllity, that
partltlon there houses sone of the staff now, and thls ls Just growlng
wtrere there ronrt be . That mlght be an
idea Hhlch woul-d helP Your Polnt.
-6-
I thlnk one of the thlngs you are going to have to do, too,
I thlnk p€rheps we sold nore on square footage last t1me, se1]lng
on the serrrlce, and the serviee ln turt requlres tha square footage. In other
lrords, squere feet tums sme people offrlltyou te1l then that they need a
serTlce and convlnce than they need a serv-Ice, as a result thls addltlonal EeIYIce
ls golng to take additlonal square footage, lt rnay go a llttLe better, and
also plans to take the nessage to the people. Irlhether they read it
or not thet 1s somethlng e1se.
We11, as e laynan readlng It, {hen you heve on thls prograrn suggestion thing,
when you have the ebbrevis,ttons rSFn , are you saylng squale feet ?
Yes.
I thlnk lt has to b6 very venr clear for the people who read 1t. I thlnk
that yourve got a coronunlty here thet car understand square footage, but 1f you
are golng to dlscuse square footage, you nust say that 500 sq. ft. for public
rorks for lnstance, 600 sq. ft. for public rrolks person nnrst also lnclude
equipnent. It rmrst, ln rry nlnd. If they , you ere so ove"-fecllltled
now, that , because f happen to vork rith faclllties to sone
degree at 27 offlces around the country, and T donrt have an offlce that has
anlmhere near thet klnd of allocatlon per person. I thlnk that that ls the
maln klnd of relatlonshlp you are golng to have to spel1 out, ltrs people, colners,
lts equi pnent. Toufve got to park a 3 ton tmckf you got to do thls, you got to do
that. lhe people arenrt golng to understand that lf they are used to deallng on a
sq. ft. basls ln thelr onn provate buslnesees.
That nurrrber ls Just that. It is the average of other - we surveyed about r
well, other conumrnltles have been dolng survey rrork of what space ls needed - our
office has, and thls nu[ber ls, all of these nunbers ere averages of shat other
conumrnitles and thls con"lnunity ls uslng on some type of ratlo basls, and here lt
ls per staff person. The 600 lncludes Just that truck, you lanow, everyLhing. T
thlnk your point ls pertlnent because horr you conrnrunl cate, you donrt rant to
confuse thar, that ls what you are sexingr you went to show that lt is exactly
what ls needed.
I thlnk lt ls very lnportent because, for example, ln rny orm business, the
rlght now rre are runnln g al 95 and 97 sq. ft. per person natlon ulde. We get a
fac11lty up to 200, 1t ls rldlculous. when I see city ha11 at h5o, that is
lncredlble.
Of course lf you look at the number lrSO tras to tat<e lnto account the fect thet
as the clty ha]"1 gets blgger, 1ike lets say Brooklyn centet, that nrnber drops to
al:nost 200 because the council chamber ls only so blg. The lobby 13 only so blg.
The smaller bullding hes a hlghe! nurrrber, but ag81n, your polnt 1s $e11 taken'
-7-
I understand those ldnds of thlngs, the neetlng rooro ldnd of facllttles,
and one of the things, re have a population sheet that cottlpa.re s a Ehole selles
of corrnrnltles, the type of servlcee that they are providlng, and the aaount of
space to house the staff to deltver those serv-lees. That sheet ls probably even
more confuslng to the pubL1c, and xe dldnrt even attach lt tonlght. I thlnk the
general lntent here end es re go to the publ1c ls to spectflcally not get lnto
all the square footages per Ferson and all that, but sitnply state thet thele has
been a conparatlve of other cmnunltles thls coonrrnltyt s slze, and to the
proJectlon of staff for thls corrrunlty, and to, ln other words, the botton llne.
Not all the detalIs, but slmply rhat the space ls and whet servLces wlll relate
to that space. I think that rrl1l ellnlnate sone of the confuslon Just to not
get into all the dlos and data and what not, but sirnply relate lt back as Paul
sald, to serv'lce.
Anythlng else?
I thlnk actually l.e heye rnoved on to - the schedule 1s pretty self explanatory.
A couple of thlngs that I rould Ilke to point out for corment ls that we are taking
alnost J tlnee longer thls tlme to go through the preparatl on efforL than ras
taken the last tlne. 1 thlnk thet gets rlght back to the one statement that was
made a fer nlnutes ago, that posslbly there wasnrt enough lnformatlon or enough
tlme to reelfy ask for lnput froln the comunlty and ln turn, present to the
comrunity uhat ever:rone feeLs 1s the best approach, anC then 1et the vote declde.
But +q' sorne of the key itemrs on here 1s, we wII1 be meeting wlth a nurnber of
sma11 cortrrunlty groups. Tonlght w111 be the flrst one, and we hope that we w111
be able to neet rlth many of you agaln end mor€ of you as re proceed along, taklng
the lnput we get frorn you tonlght end affectlng the process xe are gotng through
by that tnput, and then we hope to have at least 2 nore of these type s of meetlngs.
Hopefully they 1111 get larger es Ye nove on between thls nonth end next nonth.
Al-so, ls the ldea, thls nonthdfl the latter part, preparlng a guestlonnalre
of sone of the questions whlch, some of the statetnenta we ere hearlng tonight
rr.ill become a part of neybe e 15, 1f lt Ls a nalllng lt mlght be 1500 homes.
If lt ls a phone, lt wl1l be mrch less than that, but a survey that r11l ask
some of the sane questlons that you er€ brlngtng up tonlght, to get a sanpllng
response of how that was affected over the whole comflunlty.
We are goln8 to be Preparlng a prellmlnary deslgrr on uhetever we propose'
That wll1 include a plcture of the building exterlor, a floor plan and a slte
p1an, and a cost estirnate that 1111 be the Justlflcatlon for the
and we r,rl11 a13o be prepering flyers, a sllde show for the corrrunlty hearlngs
thet irl11 be a nonth prlor to the referendun. Thls type of lnformatlon package
was used just about 1* years ago on efforts that f rent through at Maplenood'
Ilherewehadapubllc{orksfacilitythathadenglneerlng,lthadhalfofclty
halllnlt,andwasreellyqultewellrecelvedinccmrrunlcatlngtothecorunrnlty
the needs pass. So those type of thlngs Item 6 and 7 primarlly,
Ttem No. 8, the hearlng , we antlclpate J publlc hearlngs ln October, an'i those
w111 be advertised the flrst part of Septernber and the latter part of August,
the get out to vote ls essentlallly a concentrated phone bank or nalllng effort
rlght prlor to the referendum to lnforTr people of the polllng places, the baslcs
and facts centered around the Issue, and then the bond electlon on Novenber 5.
That pretty much ls the schedule. Does anybody have any questlons or corrnents
about ls lt too 1ong, ls it too short, Just any comnents 1n Benerel-?
If not, uetll move on. Okay, the, under es surrred populatlon proJectlons and
bulldlng space requlrements, lt is the last sheet. Thls ls ree1Iy a tebulatlon
of a 1ot of discusslon that has gone on slnce the last referendurt. There has been
quite a blt of work gone into loolclng at what the servlceE are that the city
provldes now. what staff those type of servlces ri11 be requlred ln the near
future, fets say ln the next 1o years, and also for the sake of the proJection,
carrytng that out to the year 2000. we all klnd of agreed that the
5 to tO yaar range ls rea11y the safest proJectlon that can be nade. Staff can
just about predtct 5 years ahead now. More than that we have to use some other
tool to start looklng at rhat the clty services really should be and what staff
that rea11y refates to. one aspect that seemed to be the most epproprj ate Is
not to use scme type of analyLlcal tool o! sorne tlne of nunerlcal averaqlng so1e1y
to declde what ty.ce of space proJectlon should be used ln the future, but rhat we
dtcl ls we look at the populatlon and conpare i.t to 8 other conmunitles of slmllar
slze, slrlila! geographlcal area, slmllar location t|.lthln the netropolltan area,
etc. and then look at the type of serrrtces they provl de. The only unusual fact
ls that a great many of those had po1Ice, wheleas chanhassen doesnrt, but all the
other thlngs seen to be really eomparatlve, and then look at the serv"lces those
corumrnltles provide. sqne of then *ere the sane slze as chanhassen, nost of them
were sonerihat larger. They were the size that Chanhassen mlght be ln 5 or 10 years
from no{. That seemed to be the best way to look at what the future holds for
chanhassen. Population becarne Just a crlteria to sey whlch cttles to look at.
The population nurnbers sere derlved fron the l4etropolitan councll ProJectlons,
the houslng starts over the next ! years, the next 2 years, and then proJectlng
those over the near future, snd then sort of averaglng what everyone thought the
corrrunlty really would be from a purely proJected standpolnt. Then as , the next
thing of course ls if the servlces that chanhassen p"ovtdes now and w111 proride
ln the future requlre staff, how rtuch staff ls proJected for the nea! future,
and then on to 2000. That essentlelLy 1s what ls ln the 2nd and Jrd 'lines. Then
fron there wef have gone through and proJected the anount of space' Essentlally
rlght nor,s Chanhassen approxlnately hag 78OO sq. ft. There Ls 310O0 sq' ft' ln thls
bullding and approxlrately lr8o0 sq. ft. tn the pub1lc works bulldlng, west of town,
at the edge. Conparing irhat 1t should have to provlde the same senri ce.slDobh! rlth
-9-
the sane anount of staff ls the lrr 5OO for city ha11, and 6rOOO for publlc works.
Then we look at the key years, 1980, 1!!O, and 2000. The flrst referendun went
through an abbrevlated folm of the same effort as r understsrd. There they came
up wlth 1990 staff proJection spece proJections of 1L,OOO for clty ha11,
22,OOO for publlc rorks, rhlch rras a total of 35rOOO sq. ft. That has been
redueed. Partly because of the more ln depty analysls that was gone through to
deternine lt, and partly because lt seemed to relate rnore to the serrrices than the
staff. Now essentlally rrhat we are talklng about ls that roughly 151000 sq. ft.
of space support two servlces is requlred by 1980. 5BOO in clty ha11 and
8500 in public works. Then proJectlng that out, in 1990 whlch is 11 years fron
now, it would be 25,OOO. ?roJecting it on to 2rOOo, jSrOOO. So that
ROUGH DRAFT, - PIANNTIIG COMMISSION }{'I'ETINO L/'/79 TAPE I - SIDE B
bulldlng at leest There you see on the last line the square footage
proJected out 16athe ltbrary. Frorn one of our earlier meetlngs it was determlned
that about 31000 sq. ft., and you correct me lf Irn urong, was the nlnlnun facl11ty
that could and should be bul1t to house the library.
We rould like to see 3500
Okay, and that would be about 1985, but, ani tl:en this 700 was the nunber
thet cane fron the Libraty Systern, es a ratlo of vhat the bulldlng/"tf,8rrf a U"
as it relates to typlcal servlces. Based on the 2 or J neetings worth of
dlscusslon on populatlon and servlces and the arnount of space for houslng of
services, th,'t ls how we csme across thj.s line that ls double, that ls outllned
with the two bold llnes. We then proceeded, and I thtnk thet is the next ltem on
the agenda, the bulldlng organizatlon and grorrLh process, to look et what optLons
you have to lnplement those tJryes of space needs. Before T go on to that, ls
there any addltlonal comtent 3 or reflections on the progrerming and the anount
of space?
The 12! per populatlon, that ts al-so the resu,lt of an
Yes, yes, what thet was ls most conmunities vary frcrn 3.0 to about 1r.5. The
reason Lt ts ).25 ls most of the conmunlties have po1lce. Po1lce represent about
1.2 to 1. well 1.1, 1.0 to 1.2!, ln conpari son to the total. So since Chanhassen
doesntt have polIce at this tlme it had to be factored out, and that lt 1s why
iL is 3.29 and yes, lt does relate to the other connn:nitles that were surveyed.
And thet stays constant? It 1s not e uert /curtf all, dependlng on
populati.onrat sone point lt soul-d seem to me that
vle11, lt ls not a stralght line tota11y. In the ealIier, ln fact, from the
data that we have col1ected, it surprisingly, it surprlsed us what happens, but
the ratlo of staff per thousand ls 1ow in vely srma11 corrnunlties, and then as the
conmunlty beglns to grou lets say ln the neighborhood of 161000 t6 l2ro00, 1t
beglns to increase very rapldly, and then at l2rOO0 1t sterts to slor dol'm and
it alnost becones 1ess, so lt beelns to do thls.
You take lnto account nechanlzatlon, com[unlcative technoligy and af1 those
type s of things that supposedly replaee people. In a sense lt reduces, but lt
never - what I am saying ls conrmrnitles always get bigger as far as staff ls
concerned, but the ratl-os do begln to decIlne. I often hesitate to get lnto all
that because a 1ot
This one Just appeared to be straight 1lnes
-2-
It ls populatlon
It ls as a sinpliflcatlon on1y. It would be 3 to 1985, and then it world
go up to 3.5 lo ).75, the populatlon 1s not lerge enough to - in 2000 lt ls only
20rO0O. Statlstlcally it rouldn t t yet start to cone doun. Brooklyn Center ln
the last L5 years has gone through thls cycle, they have !5r0OO now approxlnately.
Okay. A couple of key points that f want to, before I go on to the next, 1s the
ldea that the proJectlon for 1980 ls .l.5r0oo sq. ft. for publlc works and clty h411,
end approxlrately 3rOO0 for library, so by 1980, by some neens the cornnrittee feels
that apprordnately ).Br0OO to 201000 sq. ft. needs to be eonstncted added to
remode.Led for the publi c works, clty he11 and the library. By the year 1990
that would go up to about 2!1000, al:no st l0r0OO, so the blggest grou'Lh proJectlon
at least if you look at the statlstlcs, should happen ln the nexL 10 years. That
1s also easler to predict, you know, peopJ.e can look at how Apple Valley, Eden
Prairle, how these dlfferent corumrnltles have ballooned.Eeyond 1990, no one, well
the 1980-1990 Metro council percentages for growUh are ln the 6 t'o 9q,. 1990 to
2ooo thc-yrre 1n the 2.5 to lr%. It 1s Just ha1f. So anyway, 15 to 20,0o0 ln 1980
rough]y 2, to 30rOOO for 1990r and then on up to 35 to lror 0o0 for 2o00. so tho*
three nunbers f t ould ask you to 1so1ate.
Now the lriea of the next sectlon whlch ls Buil-dlng organLzatlon and Grow'bh
, the ldea of slnpllfldng thls process to the 1rclnt of saylng, al-right
we need 2Or00O sq. ft. Iets bul1d 201000 sq. ft. I€ts go ask the
voters for 20rO0O sq. ft. of dollare and do lt. l'Iell, there are, the flrst
questlon In a presentation 1lke that is, well, what else can be done? Alrlght,
well the cormlttee asked thernselves the same o;:estlon. So these options, and the
sixth one, other options, ls st11)- open, but these 5 optlons relate to how to
buiLd the lnltial 1510@ to 2OTOOO sq. ft. that ls needed, keeping in mlnd that
in 1980, you ale not golng to be uslng a:l I that space, that space 1s golng to
last you for a wh1le too. ',.lhat are the varlous ways to bul1d thls space, allowing
elther property that you nl ght purchase or a1loltlin8 some means to expand or sone
rnethod to adJust r*rat you built in 1980 so that you donrt have to buil-d agaln ln
1.985 or 1990 or 95, to lessen the tlmes that the corrnunlty has to go through this
klnd of process. By the chart back here, really I did sone dlagrarns of what that
20,000 sq. ft. neans and how it can be organlzed, because the, we looked at the
first option which ls to slrnply bulId 2OTOOO sq. ft. Another opti on rrould be to
expand this exlstlng faclljty to add the space. The other option ls that r're need
public works space, but that doesnrt seem to be approprl ete here. l'Ie autonatlcally
get lnto an optlon that lf yorr expand thls bulLding you cantt put p'rbIic wotks here
if you are bu1Idlng two brrildilgs. That ls another optlon. I trled to put an
outllne here. A. !trould be clty ha11, llbrarn' and public works uith a nev
bullding rrhere you phase publie woc<s out into a new building ln the future.
Correct :ne lf I am l{Tong, but, we11, lt ls qv uaderstandlng that that 1s how lt
-3-
was proposed ln the Last referendun. That ls a deflnlte optlon and we u'111 go
through that shortly.
The second, optlon B, would be to have a new separate publie works facl}lty
and an ex.oanslon of the exlstln3 clty haLl to provlde th6 city ha1l and library
faclIIty. In other words, expand to the sor.rth here and to the west es an
addltlon. That takes care of city hal1 and fltraly. Go flnd sollre other place
to build a publlc works.
The third optlon, optlon C, ls a new city hal1 and llbrary on one slte, and a
pub11c works bul1d1ng on another stte.
Optlon D, the addltion cf the city h411, the eddltlon to thts bullding of a
library of 3r0O0 sq. ft. with basenent space, and then bul1d a t€rnporary, bu11d an
lnitlal new elty hal1 sJrd pubIlc works together, Hhere the clty ha11 ls an lnterlrn
location ! - 10 years, end then you bul1d a nen clty he11 1n enother locatton
that mt ght be nore approprlate at a polnt ln time when the growlh 1n the eorumlnlty
night be nore stable and more appropriate to bulldlng a slngle pur?ose city haL1.
Jack, why donlt you take them through tlrat
lt nrlght be easier to explain than trn'i.ng to read
And then the last one is Just a new ci.ty halI, pub1lc rrorks and , well
wer1l go through it. Essenti a11y, thls ls A. Okay, A looked at 1980, 90 and 2000,
vith the idea that you would bul1d 20rO0O sq. ft. of strrcture. The fire departnent
would take over the exlstlng facl1lty. I thlnk that was plopos€d earller. The
existlng publie works facllity whlch 1s rlght at the edge of town would not be
expanded by another corrnunlty, because you canlt
buy more 1and. That facillty you would essentlally se11 the land you are not uslng.
It uould not really funetlon . llere .vou would build 2Or0O0 sq. ft. of
land, pub11c works needs 8500 sq. ft., clty halt- needs 9800, the 1lbrary needs
2600, but actual.ly closer to 1000, so ln that 201000 -vou would have about
sq. ft. of future expaasi on space. Now, the aspect of this concept ls
that you are essenttally - okay - you are essentlaLly phaslng out pu.bli c works.
In other words, you are noulng that facilit;r o,:t of the bullding and buildlng a
ne publlc works faciLlty that sput ln 1.99O. At that polnt clty ha1l expands,
library expands, and then ultfunately ln the year 2000, you have a totel city hal1
and llbrary wtth the publlc works somewhere e1se. Now, part of the problen is
that lf 1t ls goJ.ng to be a future clty h411, then you have to , then it should
be in a place like near the dovntown, so youlve Bot the tmcks, the storage yard,
and all of these types of thlngs rlght dor'm tor,m. I thlnk that crLtlclsrn was
brought up earlier. f thtnk that critlclsm stlll calrles sone I elght. You do
have to bul1d sone space in 1990, but you are bulldlng about the mlnJ.mum emount of
space now.
-L-
Option B 1s essentially to build 1!1000 sq. ft. of new pub1lc works factlity,
B50O sq. ft. is what you would have now. The 1!r0O0 - 1et me
In each of these schemes the addltional bulldlng thet would be bullt in 19EO
represents the space requirements for 1990. you donrt weJlt to bul1d solnethlng
nou and Just have to bul1d agaln ln 5 years. So ln each case we are butldlng for
1980 what is requi red in 1990. f didnrt polnt that out earlter. f want to nake
sure that is . Here lre are buildlng a publlc works building sgreflhere
that ls appropriate' for that type of function. we have g500 needed in 1980.
We have 6!00 sq. ft. of expansion, but we are to a public works
bullding because havlng a split publi c works facility according to the staf,f,
and I would also back this up fron rry ex;rerience fron other conmulr.tles, does
not work out very well unless you get to a real1y large corrnuntty uhere they
have sate11lte public rorks facili.ties and equipnent. Brooklyn center and
MapJ-ewood have that type of project where they have so ,mrch mireage of road
and so nuch salt and gravel storage, th* the1, started having sate1llte storage
sites. rn a conununi ty this slze, to split lt rea11y does not rork very wer1.
Alrlght, then there would be an expanslon to thls builr ng here where you rrould
build 15,000 sq. ft. also. 15OO for the elty hal1, and I,OOO for the 1ibrary,
that will give you about 61000 +,o 6 r5OO for the expanslon. Then 1n 1990 you
woufd then have occupied all of the 15,ooo sq. ft. that you bulrt in 'l9go for this
.oubl i c works facl1Ity. The city ha11 u111 have expanded, the library w.ir1 have
expanded, and now they can assume the entire clty hall facllity. Then by the year
2000 the lIbrary would be displace.! fron the city hal] expanslon, and iLs c,,m
facility would be built. T thlnk thls is not outside of the future thoughts
of the county library systen. ultlnately they would llke to have thelr own
buildlng.
The corsntssioners mlght not agree, but ltrs a nice ldea.
Right, and it 1s typlcal to other county systens where some are started ln
shopplng centers and as the serv-ices grow, it hes 1ts own building. fn 2o years
to determlne you could a1$ays sar. Nou, that would be
the ultlnate expanslon that could be on here, about lSrOOO sq. ft. That would be
tuo 1ave1s of about 7500 each, uhlch woufd be bout a 50 x 120 building. That would
displace a]1 of this parking 1ot and go back saoe 65 - 70 ft. The parklng would have
to be moved back onto the grass area that is used for recreatlonal purposes. But
agaln thls would build a pub1lc works feellity Hhere 1t 1s nost appropriate, anrt a
building that would not have to have the of a clty haI1. It nould answer
the question, why canrt we Just expand what werve got? But it st11l builds 3Or00O
sq. ft. Thatrs a 1ot of spaee, a lot of do11ars. This scheme here only builds
2Or0O0 lnitla1ly. Now, golng on to the next scheme, you take the - by the way,
the fire department wouldtget this 3oo0 sq. ft., you would be expanrltng over there
for the other two. In this 0ptlon C., 1980 you would be buildlng essentlally
LOIS F.
-r-
)01000 sq. ft. of pub11c wor*s, you would be bulldlng l-5r0OO sq. ft. of clty ha11
and library rrith expansion. No!, this concept does try and use thls LSOO sq. ft.
and the nain reason for golng through tt is that lt really does reduce lt to
initial bullding size by 51000 sq. ft. Thatrs what it - you are sti1l buildlng
two new buildings ln appropriate places. Then by the year l9!0, the publl c
works facility ls at 151000 sq. ft. The city halI has expanded to lts fu11
capacity. In 2000 you have to have an addtlon on to the exlsting public works
facl1ity. The library uould agaln be dlsplaeed frorr the city ha1l that you built
in 1980. Now thls would mean that for the next 20 years you ere bulldlng ulth thls
sp1lt operation for public works, and I explained brlefly the problens ld th that.
This concept here, Optlon D, ls sorewhat the opposlte of i. One of the main
problems wlth the - here you would be bulldlng 1I,OOO sq. ft. of public works
building wlth temporary clty ha11 space ln it. you r ould have a sna11 addttlon
to this bulldlng whlch ls located properly for a 1lbrary. you would be bu il dlng
essentially about the sane 2Or0O0 sq. ft. in two seperate sltes, What you would
be dolng ls essentlaLly postponlng thc constructlon of a permanent clty ha11 unt11
rnore is deternlned atrout the growth of the cormuntty, wl1I the cornmrnlty go through
the balloonlng that Eden Prelrle and Apple valley and Bur,r:svi1,] e and so many other
comnunlties have gone through houslng start basis. A1so, what is going to happen
to the downtom here wlth what cormerclal developnent? will that increase as some
of the plans are nor on the boards for? At that point, city ha11 is a
prfunarl1y an offlce type functlon. The of that over there, to take a
garage functlon end put city he1l offlce type functlons lnto it. Meanlng phase
out the publlc uorks, has sorne what f consider not very cost effective results.
Hlgher celIlngs than you need, a 1ot of equipnent, floors and aII that type thlng.
In this case you are taklng 1n, you are allowed to have offtce space nithln the
pub1lc works facl1lty that doesntt heve any flxed equlplent, doesnrt have the hlgh
ceilings, and that type of thlng, end 1t, would be the long tern use. you rould be
buylng a pidce of property that would be approprlate for a pub11c works facillty,
and simply be used as an interln facllity for city ha1I. This ls sonerf,hat similar
to the way Maplerrood works out. They ere half the city ha11., engineeling, plannlng
and bullding lnspector went over to the publlc works faciIlty. you would be
expandlng the exlstlng facl:llties. The flre depaltnent would get the exlsting 30OO
sq. ft. In 1990 you would be bulldlng a new city hall 1n an approprlate locatlon.
The library would sti1l have thls roorn for expanslon, and be satlsfied. Publlc
uorks would have all of that buildlng. The land that you wou'l d pl.rchase uould have
enough roon to expand gubllc works ln the year 20O0 tc glve then the required spece.
In the years between 1980 and 2OOO, the library would have gro$n beyond lts
facillty to house. At that point the 1lbrary would build a new bul1dlng. The clty
ha11 you bu1lt ln 1990 is stlI1 good, could you bu11d the expanslon space into,
but the addition that the llbrary hbs vacated can then becone elther expanded fLre
departnent space, or space to house police departnent, because thls optl-on does give
you sone space ln buildlng for a Iibrary, but you could also use lt for a p"1lce
departnent. If, as the corununity grolr"th projections show, you will be up a si.ze,
it mlght end up requlring your own police departnent.
Option E 20ro00 sq. ft. lnltial bul1ding. Clne neh, bullding, one
addltion. Thls 0ptlon ln 1980 builds also 20rO0O sq. ft. ft uses the exlsting
lr800 sq. ft. of publle works and therefore 3700 sq. ft. ln the nel bull.ding. The
city ha11 and llbrary are afso lncluded all together in a bul1dI.ng that will
ultinately be publ ic works bui'ldi ng. Therefore it is bul1t where pub11c works is
going to be, but it can house both the 1lbrary and the eity hall there on an
lnterim basis. In 1990 you bul1d a 1ibrary some where. You are again uslng the
exlsting pub1lc works fecll1ty unt11 1990 to give enough soace in the publlc works
facllity for city hal1. Then in the year 2000 you etther er(pand the llbrary slte
or you bul1d a new eity hall Bonewhere e1se. At that point you could se1l off the
exlsting publie works facility. fn essence you are, ln thls scheme, building a
publlc rrorks facl1lty ard havlng a temporary use ln 1t. You are building a large
amount of expanslon space lnltial1y. obriously if you right away
you could use more of thls space but then 1n the year 1990 you would have a space
problen. You would need thls back agaln.
Now a couple of thlngs here that are ktnd of , you assune that
you make assunptions on population, you make assurnptlons on serrrlce, you nake
assumptlons on the anount of space that the staff needs to provlde lts servlces.
0n1y the last one ls pretty obJective. The smount of population I thlnk nlll
always be an lf. But thls ls based on assunlng sone populetlon
There ls quite a blt of materlal her.e, and T hope f have explalned lt at least
well enough to get the ball ro1]1ng. J would llke to have your corments.
I have a corment, by the tlrne you got to the 5th one, T had forgotten what
the ftrst, second , thlrd and fourth were about, and ln rry nlnd
Maybe I should go through lt and Just generallze the functions
In ny mlnd I see no eonnectlon between the clty Ilbrary bullding and the
clty ha11, or the city library and the publlc works, or lrhatever. I think that
the people are concerared about lnc"eased t&xes and lncreased spending, and over-
buildlng. f belleve that they would go along slth a smaller budget and in 1985
if the bullding needs expanslon, why they uould probably go along wlth lt. I ntvself
believe that you rl11 have to present three lssues. No. 1, the city ha] t, -
addltion to the clty ha11 so the fire. department can use this parttcular property,
and lf the clty ha11 expanston golng to the left or to the back, or whatever lt
happens to be. I thlnk the 1ibrary should be a separate issue entirely, and also
the pubXc Lorks. If rre are talklng about publlc works, we are talklnq about
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expenslon of a gerage. r beLleve lf we glve the people those three cholces you
nlght not get all three, but you nrlght also get all three, as three seperate
i ssues.
0n three separate locatlons?
we]1, r see no reason rhy the 1lbrary has to be part of the city hal1 conplex.
The ubrary could be any place. r kno* the slte, the ccnuntttee would determlne the
proper slte for the 1lbrary. r donrt think it should necessarlly be a part of
clty ha11.
If lt rere a part, do you thlnk that would be a negatlve?
Well, whet is the most presslng lssue? fs the nost presslng issue the
expanslon of the city ha1l to glve then the room for staff. That is one
issue. The 1ibrary ls an entlrely dtfferent issue. r think there would probably
be a nunber of people that would deflnitely woufd vote for the library, no matter
where it is. The 1lbrar']r stends out by itself, that is golng to carry its own
weight. Another thlng that we donrt know is, if thls is part of the county lJbrary
Systen, is lt all funded through the clty, or rrould k there be availabillty of
state and county funds for a county llbrary? publt c works agaln, lf a new site is
needed, where is the proper place for that partlcular location. Should it be on
County 1/ ln some area, or should lt be, f donrt think it should be here. ft should
be somewhere, probably in the center of the bullding.
But you feel thet the cltizens of Chanhassen and the thing that ls ln thelr
ninds, that the public works and the clty ha1l are the things that the;r are golng
to have to bear the cost, but there is a questlon about how the J.lbrary rea11-v
relates to them, as a cost lten.
Thls is what T donrt know either. If there ere funds aval1ab1e for a 1ibrary
constmction -
At thls time, no.
I0TS F. constructlon.
a spot for a library.
Real1y, our Vtllage of Cha,hassen wouldnrt have to build
They could rent a faclLity for it 1f they wanted to do that.
It nlght help 1f you explained, not only to Bernle, but to everyone else,
whet the county 1s willlng to spend as far as money and people and that ldnd of thlng.
IOIS F. Wlth our county library systen, the .o,rnty provide s the books, the fumiture
the staff, and the clty provides the space and faelIlties.
tors F.
DON A.
LOIS F.
IOIS F.
And lt could be rented space?
It coufd be rented space lf thet ls rhat they chose to do.
In some of the other cormunitles irhere llbraries are ln exlstance 1lke in
l,laconia,
Waconia, they rent space ln that Annex frcm the county, and that spece we are
outgron'lng drastically. There ls also a basernent sPece, we have space
waconia. l'Iatertown - the gpace i9
part of a conplexr so they prowlde thelr ovn spece for us
fn Young Amerlca,
In the Clty of Chaska, a home has been donated for
How are you doing there, are you outgrowlng lt, or
so we have to
The flre department never outgror this particular
facllity ln this locatlonr flou1d lt?
If you had sate11lte houses, whlch ri'e will have to have eventually'
It rea11y depends on hor soon ve get the satellltes and how soon
and what
I nean that i.s usually what haprens, when these satelHte stations corne tnto
existence before you would have to make thls rruch blgger. There 1s no point in
naking one bigger an<t then havlng to bui.1d another maybe sonewhere else in 5 years.
Iguesswhatlemiryinstosaylsthatlfwehavesonehlghrisebrrildlngs
here ln town, they would have to get sorne extra blg equlpnent, and possibly the
storage area lrhere the fire trucks are wouldn I t be quite large enough to handle
the equlprnent that woul ci be needed to take catle of sone of the bulldings that are
ln the doflntoflh area.
But that type of bulldtng nray be ln sone other part of the rrillage, 1n the
future too. The chances of lt happen{ng sornewhete else are probably Just as blg
as it vould be in
If could Put the fac111tY uP here
f would say
Thatrs what I was gettlng at. would this facillty last ln tts present form
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even with the additlon to this for offtce space etc., that you nlght need
u.ith the existing garage space woul.d probably last until we had anothe! garage
space aval1able for more equLpment in that satellite area.
It depends on how things go
population
space for the flre department?
year 199O to 2000 would thls be adequate
I would say Mlnnewashta area, we need a satelllte station
rlght now. I think anybody up there would agree with that
I thlnk some of these satellltes 1n Eden Pralre dowrr
here, you know, theyrve got the one on lr and Just dor,m on 169 theyrve got
another one. Thatrs not over a ft nlle or 2 niles, 1t mltes probably at the
mo sL.
C T S C I"IEETINC . I]/'/79 (R,OUGH DRAFT) TAPE E - SIDE A
Apple Va11ey Just built one new statlon and one apparatus buildlng, and those
, are lr or ! m11es epart, and relate to the coneept that Jeck talked about, wlth
the one butldlng slnce they had nothing, the related to this
buildlng and then they also bul1t the apDaratus buildlng at the sane tlne. I
think that ls another exEllple of what you were deserlblng in Eden Prairle.
I kind of feel that frorn 1985
satellite stations someplace. I think lt would
proJectlons show
help to
Reel1y, the flre departnent ls not an lssue ln thls partlcular schene of
things, at this point. That xould be a separate bond again et a I\ture date, and
if you t1e too roany thlngs together I thlnk the chances of defeat are mrch better,
because your do11ar volune gets pretty steep.
I thlnk thstrs rhat happened last tlne. Too meny thlngs.
Thatrs 11ke trylng to build at the sarne tlne.
They just donrt seem to go over when the clolLars get up there. T guess I dontt
thlnk
lJo, I donrt thlnk thatrs really what
That lsnrt what I meant elther when I satd about the future plans of thls.
I donrt see enlarglng the facllity ln this particular locatlon and then needlng
another facllity down the road a Diece ln a very short tlne.
One of the rea.sons for Eden Pralrle puttlng/Btation up on TBth street there
was the land ! as avalLebLe . My lnformation show Elylng Cloud someplace.
But they couldn I t get land there, and they didnrt have the price for lt, for what
the land 'nIas worth up there. f also think a stationshould be located where
you have sone nen that can man lt, and ln a hurry.
One thing that I would 1lke to thros out is, the corrnittee, and lt took us
quite a bit of tine to have evetXrone understand these varlous options, but ire dld
after spendirg sone time, that the ldea of bulldtng as sma11 anoun'. of
building as you can 1nitla11y nas an inportant factor. Ultinately the voters
w111 want to know 3 questlons, w\y do we need lt? What lt ls going to be 11ke?
How rmch lril1 it cost yne as a taxpayer, as an indivj. duaL ? Those three o-uestions
are the key part. Okay, so the idea of bulldlng as sna1l a bulldlng lnltla11y
as posslble al!.rays sets wefl. The idea of havlng to bulld sonethlng agaln in the
future, reil.I if the need justlfles ln the future, then you deal trlth 1t then. The
Ldea of Optlon D, whether you spllt lt or however you deal slth it, that seerned to
be the one that mlght make most sense, at least as the comnlttee and nyself look
at il, because you are bt:l1dlng essentially - you could bul1d as sna11 as 1.01000
sq. ft. if you bouBht sone Land thet could allow you to expand in the next 10 years,
-r-
and you accepted that we11, in the next 10 years we are going to have to keep
the exlsting l+Boo aq. ft. buildlng and use it as best we cen. Thls nurnber woulrr
go to 10r0oo, but ideally we want to build a 1!rooo, but it could drop to lorooo.
Essentially this would be a 15rOOO aq. ft. bulldlng and yorr vould have a IrOOO
aq. ft. additlon to the city her-r for the 1ibrary. Th!. s option was favorably
looked at because it left the city ha11 being a building that it could phase out
of, but at the same tlme the space that ls being built anrr the location can be
adapted fairly easily to a pu.bli c rorks bulldlng. The location you picked for
a publlc works facillty and then you left the city hall grow out of 1t over an
interim basis. A new clty hal1 being bu t, rrhether it ls 1990 or 95 or even 2oo0
would be built ln a location preferably right around down town. Because that seems
to be the appropriate place for a city ha11. But $hat is golng to happen to down
town? There are so e big xlfstr as far as different developnents that are on the
forefront. Thls option gave you the abllrty to build e sna11 arrro,nt of space
1nitia1ly. rt enables you to put the library ln an area that made sorne sense
frorn a users standpoint. you know, you csn bull.r a new entry off of that side
so you can separate the flre and the 1ibrary. ft is not so blg that 1t 1s
displacing recreation ground thet is behind here. rt ultinately would house the
Iibrary could stay there and you could even stil,1 put an addltion on to the
llbrari' 1f lt never wanted to go to those facilities. The city hall
build between 1990 and 2000, shou),d be so that if you bul1t it ln 1990 that wou:rd
serrrice you all the way through aooo, yet/*fi 10 or 20 years from now the police
departnent wanted spsce, then you woul cl work out w.rth the library board about horl
that related to their expansion. so that - to focus on these ! options, that one
seemed to be the one that vnade the rnost sense because it dld split them sornewhat,
but yet at the s8rae tlme provided sor e expansion potentlal and some options .t.o years
dom the road vhen you lcrow, is there going to be 9.3% popuLation grou-th rn
Chanhassen. Hhat lf lt ls only lrl fire servlces are golng to be dtfrrent.
'r,lhen is the contraet up $tth the Sheriff agaln?
Every year.
1^Jhen do we vote on it agaln?
lle donft. ?he city could put it on the baLlot again 1f they felt that 1t
could pass, or lf the people wanted lt on the ba11ot, lt coulrt be voted on.
Ltke if the rates go up?
Thatrs rlght. According to the contract the;, are supposed to let us lo:ow by
the first of J.ly of how mrch the lncrease in rates wlll be tor the nexb year.
what happens if that rate goes up and we have to do somethlng on our own? r
thought that the feellng that as r dld sone ca].ling on thet sltuatlon, that in a
few years, yes, rlght now, no. f an irondering lrhat sort of contingencles can be
nade avallable for that kind of future plannlng?
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You are looldng at that addttlon on the city ha1l as two 1eve1?
I,Ie11, you could bulld 500O sq. ft., plus a 5000 sq. ft. unflnl shed basement.
Okay, that couLd handle future expansion of the 1ibrar1y, dead storage. l{o "
pub1lc space, possibly. It could also handle police. The option, and there is
a third aspect to thet, I donrt lanow if the county feels good about thet, but
once the librarf is here 2 or 3 ]rears and you have to have a pou-ce departnent,
then lt gets dorm to the cltyrs relationshlp vith the county on thelr space, and
whether the 1lbrar}' would stay there or whether naybe there would be shopplng
center facilities bulLt In chanhassen whele you could lease space at that tlne
for the Iibrary and then you could put the po11ce and the constmctlon
use for the 1Ibrary over that 2, 3 or 5 year perlod that housed lt. So you do
have several options. The idea of hauing a pollce and flre departnent here
together does nake soine sense fron corumrnications standpoint etc. You also
lrou]d have the optlon of uslng the r:nflnl shed basanent, 8nd then conbinlng
the library on the upper Ieve1 and the city ha11 or the police deparfunent on
the lower, and then if the libra:y expands you autonatlcally get into the
issue of do they bulLd , do they go into the shopplng eenter, do they become
an expansion cf the city ha1l that you would bul-l-d in the near future. Yorl
really have J possibllitles there.
fs lt our intentlon to go to the voters wlth rnore than one plan and ask
then to nake a choice ln addition to approvlng sonething?
I thtnk that ls one of the questlons that should be discussed. It has been
done before. It is generally not recormended.
T thlnk itliB8t confusion.
Ye s.
Although it is not fair to all participants, Jrst like the idea of havln;
then as three separate buildings rnight not necessarlly be iirr fair to af1
participants, thls optlon here could separate lt. City ha11, pub]lc works,
Ilbrary. If you rnade them 3 seperate bulldings that ls the same concept. It
ls three separate issues. I think that is a 1ltt1e bit easier to do than having
city ha1I, ssne conbinatlon of the three, on different sites, or dlfferent
concepts of how you do lt. The reason for harring these 2 nonths of cormunlty
meetings ls to help declde sone of those lssues. Most people thlnk lt doesnrt
rnake sense to spIlt it up and make the voters chose between one or the other.
It is better to present a leadershlp polnt of lrlew to the conrfirnlty, this Is what
should be done, and thls is the best rlay we can thlnk of to do lt, now wlth your
yes or no you w11)- te1-I us whether you thlnk we have our heads on strai.ght on or
not.
T think that the three, at least the two sites approach ls more feaslb'l-e
than . Even 1lke a publlc works bulldlng, you can add on to that
in phases on a l-ocation. If you have a slte of arnple size to accororodate the
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buildlng ln the year 2000, I think 1t nakes nore sense to keep addlng on to
the building If lt ls designed to be added to, vhere you are not novi.ng these
facillties. Even clty ha11, lf you start buildlng a clty ha11 a.nd rnaybe every
5 or L0 years you are moving these offlces, thls ls a costly operation, not
only the eost of building but the cost of movlng is a sizeable amount that has
to be put into the funds at that partlcular tine. r thlnk that buildings that
are designed for future expansion on a site that u.il-l eccormodate then has rmreh
nore rilerit than any way you can possibly go. Even the library comblnation w.lth
city ha1l at this tine could be rsorked out so that the llbrary could be moved to
another locatlon and make offlces for clty use very reasonable, in comparlson to
moving clty offices lnto new faclLltles or re,nodeling public works buiLdings into
offices. This gets pretty costly.
Thatfs right. one of the thlngs from a1r of our dlscussions, it seens that
city halL and the llbrary could be conpatlble rlth one another. The librarx, and
pub11c works, no. The site, if there is golng to be e long tenn public works
bullding or even a short terrn3 they arenrt conpatlble. The elty halL on a short
tefir basls, neaning posslbly 10 years, ! to loyears, could be compatible at a
pttblic vorks locatLon as an lnterlm concept. f donrt know hoq anl,one reacts to
that, but ldea11y any nerr bulLdlng that shoufd be bui1t, whether it ls a conblnatlon
of eity half and library, or pu.bllc works and city ha1l, shouLd be Gxpandabre. rf
it is a new bullding it wtl] requlre property, and that site should a1low expansion.
That is a basis. rt should be presented that way. I{ow does arryone react to the
idea of, in fact sorne of the proposed sltes, IIark do you want to point out on your
vnap here one of the possible sites? lle night as well get into lt. later on ln
the agenda we talk about potentlal sltes for these various things.
If you look at Option B, which seys we are golng to buil-ct a public works
facl)-lty with lnterin citr hs11 and expancl thls bullding for a library or future
polLce or eombination, Mark - we went to the conprehensive plan of how the clty is
golng to grow ,.ith the houslng, where the best place would be for publie works.
Flrst of all, this ls kind of a generallzed nap that portrays lossible
land use by about 1990, ri th parti cular of thls nature what is happening now
it may be fairly reallstic. Existing city ha11 sLte ls right up rn here, where
we are at now. Just for reference the pub1lc works facllity is right here.
'Ihat ue are looking at rrith option B obviously ls the addition on thls particular
piece of ground, ancl then the public works and lnterlm city ha11 would be what
we are lookinq at now is probabl.y located rlthin the inrlustrial area. The reeson
for that bei.ng the corunent that was brou3ht up eerlier this evenlng, we want to
locate lt as centrally withln the comluni ty as posslble. re want to mJtigate
any risual probl.ens wlth trucks and sand and salt and el1 that by locatlng it
rrlthin an industrlal area. Thls area 1s partleularly attractive because there
are conditions uithln there that really make themselves workeble as far
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as lrorking with the park and vhat we can do outside storage.
So sltew'ise, we are rea1ly looking at these two. Ultinately then as the
conrnunlty contlnues to grov as lre are optimistlcally thinking 1t 1111, the
city ha1). use then wi11 drop out and this will becone onl.y a public rrorks
faclllty. The eity hal1 would be located back up agaln and in rough
proxfunity to where we are at nor. Settlng up a demo we fee! is rea11y ldnd of
a nice el ernental type of with the schooLs, the gost offlce, r,r{th the
and then with the new clty ha).1 bullding, and then relatlng
obulously very we:|1 tc the conmerciaL area that again hopefully rdlr be
establi-shing itself. So in the future, adjacent to one another would be the
libra:r'y, posslble locations for pollce, fire, city ha11, post office, all in
one geneal area, possibly
ltrat would be the use in turninq clty hal1
Fire departnent
Library would be where in there?
In an additlon just to the south here.
Would that access then be fron
Off the road, next to the post offlce. You would have two separate
access points, so that you could separate the flre tyce of aecess needs, and the
general pub1lc. You would have a parklng area to the south, access only frorn
this road between here and the post offlce, and then the 1ibrary would have its
entrance on that sl de.
l,rhy wouldnrt it be feasible to build a public works in that area down there
ln that blue area, that lndustrlal area, and the clty ha11 in thls present locatlon?
rdhy
Thatrs this optlon right here. That is say you bul1d a, you expand the city
ha11 for the city ha11 end the llbrar"v right here.
Wel1, not necessarily on this particular slte, but f ne&n on that other
property that the elty ouns.
rrhat you sald.
No, hers not talkinB about the land behlnd the clty ha1L.
There lsnrt how mrch frontage do you have here? There lsnrt anything
left on the frontage. You canrt go too mrch nore.
l,Jhat I s the capablllty of thls bulilding for beLng expanded vertlcelly?
To my knorrledge, In looldng at pIans, none. The foundatlons were never
designed to take a vertlcal expanslon.
Any future
Yes.
I guess slnce the last neeting when ue discussed the Plan C quite thoroughly,
f have been doing a lot of thinklng and taLldng to o.ulte a few people 1n the
conum:nlty here, and f am uonderlng 1f we should bulLd our public works tmildlng
in an industrial a!ea, leave thls bullding as lt ls at thls tirrle, build a city
haII and 1ibrary in an a!6a adJacent to thj.s area, or sonewhere ln thls
goverrunent center area future, and I an wonderlng if thls 1s golng
. lle uouldnrt have to bulld thls blgger buildlng, just buy the land
for the public works building in the lndustrlal area, that we wou'l d buy the
'l and for our clty ha1l ln our govemmental center which today ls going lo be 7/)
the cost lt is golng to be In 1990, and have I separate buildings. Leave this
one for the fire departnent and . contract poHcing. That would have to
be a separate issue sometlme in the future. f an Just throwing this out for
some di scussion.
That would be somewhat slnilar to Opti on B, Optlon C, where you are
bulldlng a public works building sonewhere in the lndustrial area, lets say.
You are bulldlng a city hal1 and llbrary in the goverrrrrental area here to the
west and south, and then as you expand pub11c rorks expands by an addi.tion
method of adding on to lt as lt is needed. The city ha1I 8ou1d have expansi on
space that would carry it up ln 1990, and only at the year 20OO would you need
so nuch space ln that bullding you bul1t in 19Bo that you woul-d have to get lnto
do we displace the library? Do we rent them space somewhere, etc? I think
that
clty properLy nrns tc that new street back there, doesnrt lt?
Thatrs right. It boarders
Werve got about $20rOO0 worth of Park and Rec. facilltles we just
$20r0OO ls conpared to what sone of these other
facilities for the kids anyway, so yourve got to buy land
in the niddi-e of a conrmrnity center or a governmenta:l center.
But itrs right next to the schoo:I. though, the;r lonow we Just bought
facllitles.
Uel1, isnrt there any other property avall able ln back of the school?
There wi,1,1 be qulte a 1i-ttle property that was available Just in this
adJacent a?ea, you could go rl ght across the new hlghway, (6rb€f D"lve, the
newly dedicated Kerber Drlverfor the city ha11-11brary concept, and lt stl1l
would be in the general sarne area.
Sonethi ng f wanted to see a?Ler otrr' last neetlng was sone proJected costs
constructlon costs for these varlous optlons. I thlnk that would be very
apropos to our discusslon tonight. The square footage of a eity ha1l-llbrary
is dlfferent construction cost than it would be for the
-?-
I thlnk essentlally a publi c rorks facllity could be buiLt ln the neighborhood
of $20.00 to $25.00 per sq. ft. I'lhen lt 1s just a public works faci1lty. But lf
its a rnetal bulldtng or concrete block, ycn could do lt for about the seme thing
you could do a warehouse nanufacturing building for, nhich would be about $20
to $25 per sq. ft.
Yo.r donrt mentlon metal bulldlngs ln Chanhassen, do you?
Okay, alright, well then lt would be probably closer to i25-
you got now for pub1lc works bullding.
Anyway, a clty ha11 rould be in the nelghborhood of $35 to $lr0 per sq. ft.
for the 1ibrary and city ha11, and r think that is pretty easily justlfled w"ith
just conpsrlng other bulldtngs and $hat they cost. I would have to be higher
frade naterials, i.t would not sinply be a concrete block bullding, I wouldn I t
think. So frorn that standpolnt, you are bullding about, Lt rou1" cost you
about 1/3 more to bul1d a clty ha11-llbraly type of bullding.
Again, those flgures ne an lltt1e when f look at 5 different optlons.
Three phases 1n each one, ard 1980 eonstructlon costs and 1990 and 2000. Thatrs
a lot of thlngs to be put together. If we can get by, you know, with a cheaper
referendum now, wlth somethlng that may last us t111 1990 or beyond. like I say,
the thing that bothers ne is that r,re are baslng this on prciected populati ot
figures, and werve been burrted on those repeatedly over the past 15 years. They
havenrt ever been what they were proJected to be. 'uJhy should we rLsk bulldlng
more, spendlng nore money than we actually need to spend at this polnt 1n time?
I would 1ike to ask you one question. How mrch nore ltould a publIc vorks
building cost If you added the clty ha11 on to lt? You are going to heve sorne
of the sarne facilltles you have ln a city ha11, I nean you Just donrt llve in the
she11.
Thatrs rlght. Just to look at 0ptlon B here, you are bullding approxinately
lets say 61000 sq. ft. of space here. To flnlsh the lnslde of that space would
cost you In the neighborhood of E3 to $5 , ceillng, s'e11s, earpet, per sq' ft'
So lf this buildlng costs you t25 per sq. ft. to bul1d, thls portlon would cost
I'ou an addltlonal $5 per sq. ft., lets say up to $10, to finlsh it off on the
lnslde accordlng to a typi cal office, council chanbers, and that type of thing.
so thls bulldlng rlght here, okay, thl s echene here, thls additlon here would
cost ln the neighborhood of $150, oo0 to S2ooroo0.
Holt neny square feet ls that?
SrOOO sq. ft. Okay. Thls addltion here rould cost you about $[00r00o
plus an addltl cnal atout $11501000.
For the cdnplete bulldlng ?
Ye s.
And if you took the clty ha11 part off of lt?
o
ff you took this out I thlnk, lf you take thls out you are savj.ng
approximately, well f sald about 7;000 sq. ft. of clty ha11. Thatfs about
,i35r000. Tt costs about $!r0oo to flnish 1t. fs thet your question?
He neant you took the buildlng off eompletely, that portion?
Yes, that portion of the building off conpletely.
If you only built that?
Yes,
Okay, then you get lnto the situatlon where you are going to have to
but Id it very shortly. You worrld have to build an addLtlon in 5 years
approxlmately.
What f an thlnklng though is if you are going to have to bul1d an
addition very shortly, you are going to have to no''re the city hell wlthin 5
:rears, so you are actually bullding a buL]ding an;rway 1n 5 years.
I thlnk what Al" 1s trtrlng to say Is not to bul1d that buildlng there,
but to figure bui ldlng lt up here rathe! than moving it
Then it would take together
Thatr s right.
In ! years you are going to do it anyu'ay.
That gets back to thig scheme. If we build the clty ha11 and librarT
now, at X do11ars, bul1d the publi c works nor.r at Y dollars. Okay, lf ne can
agree that we bul1d what we need for 1990, we ean bulld at least 10 years,
nake a projectlon of at least 10 years, then thls, to !ul1d a clty ha1l and
library now, that requir€s approximately about !rOO0 sq. ft. So yourve got
about 61000 aq. ft. expanslon space to grow into over the next 10 years.
l.5ro00 at lr0 would be $500,000. thats at 3, Lo Lo. So that would be $500,000
This would be 10r0OO aL 25, 1"haL rrould be S25Or00O. So thls scheme is $8501000.
Now you can rnake lt less by assuming that they may need nore space In 5 years.
They are golng to be very cranped, 1lke theyrve been here for 10 years, ! years,
before you build anJr nore. So you could cut the ex,Danslon space down ln both
of them and bul1d 1ess.
It also allorrs for emergency, so that lf ve have to take over the police
department
Thatrs rlght, you put the police right in there. Or put lt in here,
but you put it ln here. So that expansion space covers your option for police.
I think I sald this was $500,000 and this ro'r1d be $250,000. I can Just
wrlte this rlght on here. That r.ray everybody can hold lt against us.
Ilold you to it.
Thatrs not the -l-and, 1s that Just building.
-q-
Yes, J.ard can fluctuate all over the board.
Okay, then thls would be $2501000.
Are we talldng about the bulLd1ng right now, or are re talldng about
You are talking about the mLddle one on those prices.
Yes, you are building for 1990. This is what you are actually uslng.
This sarne nr:nber works for both of these.
llhat are we doing erlth that enpty space ln the neantlme ?
That ls exactly the reason rhy thls scheme made more sense. You have less
of lt.
Do we have to build that now, or can we Just make sure we have
the land sDace available to put It on.
Here ls one thing you can do. Thls can be ar ufinished basernent.
The fini shing aqaln, ls about $5 to !7. The she11, foundatton and roof
that is the major cost, aad the . In this concept you could save
sone noney where you could save, lf it is a basenent, your finishlng costs
are going tc be t10. I want to make thls pcint cJ-ear. Tf ;rou build e one
story building anC flnlsh off a segment of that one storX/, that is the $5 I
an talking about. ff you build a two story bul1dlng, a flrst floor and a
basernent, the cost to build a basenent lf you didntt finlsh it, would be about
.il.O.OO of sarinEs. Thj.s can get real confusing, but you can bulId 610O0 sq. ft.
of basenent and not finish lt, and it is on)-y golng to cost you half of uhat it
costs to buiLC the whole building. That depends on the land and everythlng too.
Any house builder riJ.1 Just about telL you that. And it holds tme here too.
So this nunber lroul d go dorn if thls 6OO0 were a basement. It wouJ-d go down
by .;601000 or N70,0OO now. It rlight go down even more. Okay, if it costs $l-ro
to bul1d thls bulldlng and you had 71000 sq. ft. lets say of unfini.shed
basement, that would be $1.L0r000, beeause you can actually do that for alnost
ha1f, lt20 per sq. ft. to build an unflnished basenent. Okay, now so that would
go down to about $5lrOrOOO, f nean Slr6OrOC0. Okay, this one - I an assumlnq
that 1s a1l on one .l-eveI. ldhen you build this, actua11.y ln thls parti.cular
scheme, you would not have 6300 sq. ft. of ex.Danslon, you would have about
2J100, assuming that you did not try to use existlng pubIlc rorks facility as
and split i-t. This should be 8501 inltially. Now that means that this would
be about 2000 sq. ft. of expanslon space.
0n this Plan C, there is no morrlng there proJected fron one hrlldlng to
another, rlJht:
No, only by the year 20OO do you h ave to deal wlth the fact that the
city hali has groun to sueh a proportlon, I nean the 1lbrar1'has groHn to such
-_r 0-
a proportion that lt would have to be dlsplaced.
Plan D, you have
C F S C MEETTNG . V5/79 ROUGH DRAFT TAPE 2 - SIDE B
5,000 sq. ft.
Okay, lets - thatrs a very good point. Okay. Lets say thatrs
thatr s too high.
Thatts the
okay, lets say this 1s 20Or000. Okay nov this we said okay, thats 15
and 25. Thls ts )25 tooo. okay, now you cone out here ln 1990 you have to
bulld a new clty ha11. okay, now thatts 6001000, okay
The ganble here ls you are bulldlng a very snalf amount lnltla11y, because I'ou
donrt know r*rat is going to happen. Is thls going to be an Apple ValLey, or
ts this golng to be an orono ? orono has got 2.3% growlh over the last 10 years.
App1e Va11.ey has got verT slgrrlflcant growth. even less than
Eden ftairle.
It is supposedlY saturated out
Thatfs Just exaetly the Point.
!'lhere are you ln relatlon to where the populatlon Is rnorrlng?
Okay, now that
You say the city ha11 above malntenartce
bulldlng would cost $3251000.
$375,000
Irm sorrlr, )'esr$325 plus fini shing this off whleh 1s another $l ttmes
No, it is 5375,000 with $20 ft.
And the finishlnS off in there would be
Another $135,000
That doesnrt lnclude
None of them lnclude Land, or does that size flgure lnclude the land?
No.
Sone of . Some of the Land is al-ready ovned'
Yes, like thls land here, this one you have to buy land for, so th't
is g610,000, plus 1and. This is $B5o,ooo prus/SB lbsek: of l€ts Just
f dontt seern to get 5000 sq. ft. dlfference between C and D'
In 1980 on B , you build 201000 sq. ft. and then ln 0ption C you
bui1d 25roo0 sq. ft., so it would be $2oorooo dlfference, but the 5r0oo sr1'
ft. of new bullding
Ttlls ls 1oro0O sq. ft. AL $29 t that ls thet one. This 1s 15'oo0 sq' ft'
at $1r0, and you got
r,.Ie1,'1-, you can. f rm not taking eredit off these
-2-
On this one, to build a nal or publi c works new bulldlng would be $25
tines .$15, and that ls $3?5 . Is that correct? Then yourve got to finlsh
off the clty ha11 on the lnslde and ffi encLose that, and that would be
another .!5 for Just that portlon. That nould be another $35r0OO. That would
be Sh1orooo. That would be $6101000 for 20,0O0 sq. ft. of space and here lt
would be $870,000 for 2!,000 sq. ft. of space.
I think do you have 15r00O 6q. ft.
on public works ln 1990 and then change it, all of then change.
bulldlng
ln this one, lf you look at this one over, ritrat lt has to do rlth is
the
Tn thls one here you planned on using the o1d facl1lty
Yes, rlght here, and f 8m saylng that if you dldnrt do that the, you would
have 8500 sq. ft. of space to be used out of the 10rO0O ln 1980r and the 1990
you need 15r0o0. We are 3t111 uslng this lr800 here. Okay, so you have to add
an addltlon on in 1990 to get up to the 15r0OO or use the existlng. Does that
answer your question, or does It elear up the di screpancy?
No, I guess not.
Okay.
Irve got no on , but f am looklnp and f only see 5rooo sq.ft.
between Plan C and D of new bulldinrs, and }.hether lt 1s $lro per aq. ft. or
whatever, I donrt see the $2001000.
I'1e11, ln 1980 you are bullding 10rO0O sq. ft. of pub1lc works faclllties.
The reason you ere bulldlng such a snal1 smount, and tt doesnlt make any sense
to build 151000 whl ch ls l,hat you need ln 1990.
'v{e11, you are using 5,OOo existlnf, so you have :15r00o.
Yes, but T an not happen, yes 1t 13 there, lt ls already bui1t.
So thls is 10r0O0 arrd there 1s 15r0oo ln city hal1, that ls 25r0oo sq. ft.
Am I confuslng the lssue?
No, it ca1Is for 2l rt)oo sq. ft. lorooo pubu c sorks and 15,000 clty halI.
Yes, thatts ?5r@O. For 1980. AIld thls one Is 201000.
No, 15rOOO to share clty hal1 and publl c works. Okay, s.rrd you are adding
5,000 to this bui.ld.!-ng
For the llbrary, sothat ls 201000
Tota1, rlght.
Maybe you could ask the questi on agaln.
]'Ie11, the question ls ln 1980 you are adding 2!roo0 sq' ft. here to
Plan B. You are addlng 2OTOOO sq. ft. to B, yet you are golng to cost $20Or0OO
difference.
Here is the reason. You are building we are not ccrnpensating for this
expansion area. We are bulLdlng 1lrOoo sq. ft. of clty ha11 here, at ;|lrO.
Okay, over here we are buildlng
Okay, sonething less than 151000 ft at $l+0.
Oh yes, rftat you are doing here, you are bullding a clty ha11 for $25 a
sq. ft.
0kay, ny polnt, ny origlnal polnt is looking at that, you .orobably have
built ln false economy because you are going to alnost have to move to Plan B
by l99O fcr sure, and I think based on
In the intertn, as I clalrned at the last neeting, between 1.980 and 1990
by 1990 you have to have, definitely sorne crorrlng, and at 3 to ! year per{.od,
but by 1990 you, based on popu1atlon, you have to have a new bul1ding.
Yes it says add ln 19901 15rO0O sq. ft., and I thlnk that ls lrnportant
that the public, they night not buy thet extensloh 1n 1990, but
Do we all agree that in thls Opt.i on Dwe build the slaLlest arnount of
bullding end ue buy the least anount of 1and. I think that ls real-1.y what we
are trying to say here.
In 1980.
You postpone
Yes
I think we all agree but llhat f am hearlng Is something
false eccnony tn dolng that.
It expensLve in terms of addltional sq. footage added ln
1990 and the year 200O. That plan adds no!e, purchase rnore out
Jack, lf you ]-ook at option C, the $5001000 figure yout ve got dovn there
you could actuaLl,y take that 55OO sq. ft. and assune that it ls all on one floor
with expansLon space, nake that a sheI1 unflnished and say
You are looking at about $l+60ro0o ttren
Right
The second questlon f rve got is, vrould lt not be r+lse for you to rea1Iy
bulld a basenent under any city half or llbrary bullding that you bul1d anytfay?
Yes, in general that ls the case.
5o, what if.
Wel1, nry polnt ls, it Is great to bulld a fuIl basenent. But you have to
realize, what are you golng to put dovn there? As soon as you pu.t a councll
chamber, as soon as yorr put any public space, there has to be sprlnkler,
two rneans of e:dt, and an elevator. f would like to have a slte that has a
drop off so there could be a walk out. Okay, so I thlnk that any bui1d5.ng you
bulld whether it is 15rO0O or 201000, lt should have a basenent. Hor'r dld we
dge+, ottL/ that here?
-[-
Irle11, the bulldtng was bullt so Long ago.
Holr dld we get around that on the last referendun? Werenrt we bulldlng
a walk out on one of the floors?
Yes.
Is that e requhenent across the board, or ls it a public serrrice buildlng
a librar1r, or sorne rhere where the people are nomally golng to be uslng
Okay, f just built the Ramsey Clty Ha11, d in north Anoka. There we ha,re
a one levef fire stetion and a 2 1eve1 city hall ccrnblned. city Ha1l is upsta& s,
full basenent. The only thing we use down there is a police, garage, and.
properttr' storage area, sna1I and nechanical roon snalI. There ls i/L of a f].oot
empty. Okay, for us to use that we have to corne ln and sprinkLe the buildtng,
and we do have a wal-kout, so that solves the handlcap. They couldn r t afford the
sprinklers now, the taps are there for the future, and all that type of thing.
So to use a basenent, they feel ttrey/**f;dtn the future, they wi11 pay to fix it
up in the future to meet codes, arrd lt is a salkout so lt does neet handicap.
They elevator.
[v point, wou'ld a police departnent reo-uire, is that a requlrement aeross
the board, ln all p'ub1lc buildings?
Yes. l,lhether or not the police departrnent has to be sprlnklered rel-ates
to ihr lrhether you are using the space for neetlng rooms. For the police
department, no, you woufdn I t have to sprinkler !.t, but you nouLd have to have
handlcap access, elevator or walkout.
We have I think roughly 31000 sq. ft, of unftnlshed basernent we are not
uslng now.
llhere is that?
In the old St. Hubertr s church basement.
0h.
Tn any new constmction ln the ctty, ln relatlon to sprinkler,
or donlt we have anJr as such - the city?
The building code
The uni forn bulldlng code - would be the sarne as he 1s talklng about.
It is fron the state.
lnIhat I was getting at is you might have to sprinkler it regardless because
of our own code s.
The Sunrlse Hllls has a sprlng rneeting May 6, Sunday night * 7:30. If you
can dlstill thls dorm to naybe sn hour, half hour with a half hour worth of
discussion afterwards, Roman spoke there 1ast year and had a pretty good
reception. ff you would 1lke to be there, that is May 5, rlght here at 7:30.
'rrle r 11 rnake sure it is on the agenda.
-5-
Is there enough property along slde here to build a city offlce' Llbrar"Y'
and f8cl1ltles for a po1lce departnent in the future ' The thlng thet I say
is that 1t would save you ls rnorring and buylng land'
IV ansvrer tc that is yes. It does pose a probl en with the recreatlonal
use tlue west. I think that is a negative. The parldng is golng to have to
rnove west. T have d"awn up a slte plan of this area, part of the recreation
faellitles, and the post office and the road, and the answer Is yes'
One of the things that as I go through all these options, is optlon D
ls the on1)' one that even nentions consideratlon for a po1lce departrnent ' I
ttrint<,zlf,at is going to be e valf,d consideration, ve ought to throw it in
every option. The reason I brought i-t up 1n the flrst pl'ace was' lf you had
a oPtion, 1 think ne shoulri be looklng at all of the facllities we
ormandhowtheycanbestutlllzethem.Thatbasernentlsnotbelngutl.lized
ald.tone,Ilgrowofalotofpol.i.cedepartnentsthatarelnSl'le1lerpIaces
than that , ln basements of buildlngs.
T thlnk that optlon 1s particularl)' apparent lf next yea! you have to
have I police departnent. I think that autornaticaLly becornes
Thequestionllasral.sedbeforethatastouhetherthtsbu!,1d1ngcou]dbe
expanded, ancl you sald no. I would like to have an englneer take a look at lt'
Wtth the steel. constmctlon that is golng on, ve may go up higher' Today drlve
es.se steel plllngs doun, and run your steel Jolsts aeross and T would think
that thj.s bull-dlng corrld be expanded.
Then yourd have the accessabllity probl-en agaln' Although frd rather
go up or
Based on your to my earlier statenent, f agree rlth you the },ay
you descrlbed lt. You coufrl do lt that uay. I should have prefaced my No'
with the statement that f donrt knov if you would want to pay to expand it that
way. But, because you !.oul-d have to put ln new formdetions adJacent to the
existlng ones. I think it can be done, and I arn not argulng wlth you about
that, f en iust seylng lt may be very ex.oensive once you go through the
exercl"se to tind out. There 1s also enough land to' ln qv opinlon' based on
the parklng lot at the rear here, and the grass area betteen the parklng 1ot
andwhatlsawasahockeyrinkiustafewrnonthsorsoagortherelsenough
roorntoprorridetheparkingantlthebulldingrithoutgolngup.lg.uessfron
the standpolnt lf you of an optlon' the ldea of going out
to$ards our way, especlally slnce youtve got about 5 to B ft' easlly of
gradeseparatl,onbetweanthatroadandthernalnfloorofthisbullding'you
coulcl easlly have a walkout. Or at least, the traditlona:l concept' where
you enter at the mld floor, walk up to the city hal1-llbrary' walk doun to
expanslon space, futute po1lce, whatever' Then you have to add a lrt ft' drop
rarnp to get the handlca?Ped .
-6-
That could be ranped ln both dLrectlons, e ramp and a step.
0r you could look to the $61000 to $10r0O0 for a two 1eve1 lrydraull e
el-evator.
Probably the cheapest woul-d be to utll,ize the present property and move
the athletlc rink
Hon mreh of that would you have to nove?
Yourve got to buy the land before you can move that.
let me Just'try to put that in pe"sfrectlve. Let me ask the questlon,
what ls the grass used for between the asphalt end where thel' 55r" the hockey
rlnk up.
Parking.
Okay, can there be parklng on the other slde of the athletlc fleld adJaeent
to where the new road now goes 1n?
No.
0kaY.
Thatr s the soccer fle1d.
Let me just try - soccer, slnce you .Dark on grass now, and you donrt
play soccer a:rd hockey at the ssne tlme, is that an option?
Sure.
i.le could look if there is any state or federal fi:nding aval].ab l- e for any
of this constructlon. If so, what are thelr requirotent s.
I did, let me preface thls. At Maplewood the bond issue passed. At Ramsey
lt went down twice. 'v[e di.d everything ln the world to make it r'Iork. ] to 1.
We built the buildlng wtth a EDA Grant. There is high ruranployment north of
tovn, so I built the buLlding w.ith comnunlty funds, revenue sharlng
funds, wlth EDA Grant, and unless Chaahassen has unemployment of hlgher than
?id, forget it.
Thatrs the onli' requlrement, the unemployment?
And Lou incone people.
Meny ti:nes welve tried for that, and nerve a,]-vays been
Although there 1s a1llays something 1n the future that night help you,
there is none in the near f\rture that f can predict. EDA ls out, corrrmmlty
block grart, reverue sharing. Plymouth dld bul1d their bullding on a nodifled
industrlal revenue bond. contract, which was worked out wlth Dain, Kalnan & Qual1
and future tax increnent from a shopplng center, a very trlckt, f celI it tricky
because they didnrt nant to go to the voters again. So there are methods. I
donlt know how,'nany are open here, but verJ' felt that I can foresee fron my
Youtre not sailn3 that a1.1. of the recreatlon wou-'l.d have to go
-7-
],io, Irn saylng tJet grass bot betweem tJe esphalt and the hockey rlnk
wouLd become asphalt parklng. That ls alLI an saylng ltould go, 35 I see the
site p1an.
I^lou1d this take care of the future excanslon then unt1I the year 2000?
Thls schene rlght here?
No, I am talking about addltlon at thls partieular site.
Thatrs thts oner where you put a city hal1 end llbraqr addition to the
south, ye11 bu1ld a publl e ',lorks someuhere el-se, that would take .vou - tte1l,
in the year 20O0 you woul-d have to add on to the pub1Lc works,
But that would be at another locatlon, so we eould care less about that
And the Ltbrary would be dlsplaced
But then agaln that could be changed to a nev locatlon too at that future
tirne, or rented space, you never knor,r what might happen.
Right. If the library moves, cost to the taxpayers for movlng?
There are trvo thlngs, yourve got 20 years here. If the popu)-atlon of
Chanhassen is 20rOOO ln the year 2000, what abo':t the rest of the eounty?
Chanhassen is not the only naJor center. The rest of the county is going to
grow to the point, and I thlnk then you are back lnto the lssue ef the
conrnissloners looklng at where they are at wlth their 1ltrrary capltal funds
and do they build, do they lease their own facllity? fn 2O years a lot can
happen. Thatrs one option. Tn other words, it could be thelr responslblllty
to bul1d the bullding. It could be your responslbllity to lease space for
them whtch would be a long tefin cost but/f,uch, much mrch shorter short ter:n
cost. So
Jack, point too, with that one, one problen you might lncur ls
in 1990/tfie pollce de.:artnent cornes ln, you mlght have a probl en and you ni ght
choose to move the librarlf at that polnt 1n tlne, but then by the year 20OO
clty heI1 wJ.11 require all of the space and yourve got no addltlonal expansion
for the po1lce, what ere you golng to do rrlth thern? They are going to be in
cranped facl1ltles, obvlously the poltce relates very lre11 to the fire fcr
conmunlcations, and ldentlty standpolnt
1{e11, the other thlng you can do is you can deslgn a ner bulldlng and
take a second
There ls already a basement here, because the plan that I
descrlbed to you 1s two story. ?5OO sq. ft. per 1eve1. So ree11y you nould
be addlng a second fLoor to that
I..lhen you declde a bulldlng you cen do that. So that would be
another optton for even nore expanslon. l,ets say lt ls 3Or0OO people out here
in the year 200O.
What
afl the way back
-8-
Thatrs why you should have a second floor potentlal here.
the area behlnd there? Do you put the buildlng line
No, lf you neasure 125 tt. from that front edge of the buildlng back,
thatrs how far the building goes. Thls buildlng here, anybody want to rnake
a guess, about 60 feet? you go another 6o ft. back, and you go about
in the grass I little blt I think. 60 feet back there
Then the parking uould go back where the grass ls at, all the rray fron
where the fire departnent Houfd use It all the way a.cross.
Tou could wrap 1t around too. In other words, you could make it al ong
there and across the back over to rrhere it would not obstruct the flre departnent.
Then the parking ii onthe grass?
The parklng 1s on the grass, rlght.
lJe could live lrlth tha+, as long as you donrt get into the lake.
No, I hare the llne shown on my slte p1an, and that I think you lmow,
it just doesnrt rneke sense
There is another posslblr.lty rrlth the parklng back near an entrance,
r would think that there courd be an entrance off the sehool property and in
there too for hockey games and for
I lrould re com[end that if we bullt anyLhlng here se shou]d not
the street and nake that public eccess. The flre department would be separate
a.nd detached. You know, theyrve got a nice separate clrculatlon off the two
streets, the pub1lc goes the other directlon. A complete separatlon. I
thlnk rlth this road over her,e into the post offlce re can achteve thst.
Thatts one thing I thought there nas like about
dorsn here. outside. There is about l0 people upstalrs, at the sign
eormittee neeting, end you cone down here and f guess altogether there ls 1i
or 20 peopLe dorn here, and ltrs packed out there.
f sn assumlnq that you would need for 15rOOO sq. ft. you would need ln the
nelghborhood of l-rO to !0 spaces. ff
t.Ie are talklng about library and city ha11?
Rlght. But the llbrary us8.ge 1s besed on g to 5. The clty ha11 car density
ftra.r ls not 8 to 5, lt is evenlng. Thatrs when you get the greatest density of
parklng. Hhat I am saying 1s that the 1ibra44 and clty hal1 during the say
would probably equal your nlght time needs.
-q-
You could lralk acloss fron the school too.
Somebody here nentloned the posslbllity or the probablllty of a satel11te
flre department. Wouldntt it be easler lf that Is lnerrltable, rouldnrt it be
wlse to lnclude lt ln these plans so the voters see it?
f rnentioned tt at the last coup).e meetlngs. Tt uould probably be very
helpful in se1'tlng the uhole lssue.
Up on our end of torn that would sound pretty good.
fhen you have to fece the polnt of bui.lding on, not only
and f think it is just
Well you got to talk reality instead of a falql ta1e.
I thlnk that lf I 1lved up there f wouLd feel wlth this plan thet you are
rea11y forgetting the people up there. By not even mentioning it.
Absolutely.
T donrt thlnk ar6rone dlsagrees wlth the need. I am only saying that lt
is the quantlty of solrring the need and f rrould contlnue to ask you to look at
the fact that one has alre sdy gorie doxn. It has been turned dotm once. As you
the probablllty of gettlng a end there are stll1 baslc needs,
of gettlng a by making it bigger when it has already gone down
once. you are just talktng probability.
I forget $hat the cost of the last proJect nas?
s7oor0oo.
There is one distinction f think, Jack, that you might be brlnglng up is
f donrt know lf you ere necessarlly talking about tncludlng lt in the referendum
but Just maklng lt very evldent ln the process. Tn the presentatlon
1 arn assunlng that would be done. You state the need, you recognlze the
need, and you develop a plan to do it. ft le not my opinlon to say you canrL'
That ls your Job. I.{lne is only to provlde advlce.
the course of rhere your populatlon the center is, etc., but basically
what lre are sitting here talking about is educating these people to the fact
that there ls e need for sonethlng, and lf you leave out another flre deparfirent,
thatls a fousy Job of education as far as T see lt. Thele are an awful 1ot of
people up on our end of torn thet wiU 1et you people llve ln a quanset hut and
stlll vote for a flre dePartment.
I agree sith hln, because I thlnk the last vote sort of lndlcated rhen you
got up in that preclnct up there, that the people up there have a need for
somethlng nore than what rre are trylng to give thern wlth the facllltles we uere
trylng to put ln down here.
-'t_^-
They donrt ldenttf! rith the city anprey.
I
This might also be tnre 1n 5 to fO years where bond referendum to bulId a
fire station up there, people dovn here ni.ght not be real enthused about lt.
Right now a good way to solve thls problen ls to chop thls thing in two
and glve half of it to D<celsior and half to Chanhassen. As fer as we are
concerned up on our end of tolin.
This is the way the voters look at lt up on our end of tom. .rohn, f em
not that far wrong, am f?
Thatrs trr:e, 8111. ff you are going to get the people to vote
for somethlng, f thlnk you ought to at least recognlze the fact that they are
part of the Chanhassen conrmunl ty.
Let ne suggest a possible option then. Tf you do that, then you should
look at the possiblllty of bullding as 'l.lttle dovn here as you can, because you
are taking a chunk of that and putting it up there. I an sefing speciflcally,
the ldea of a referendum going down once, f an assumlng we are all here to
achieve somethlng, and I an only talking about the probabillty of that. Tf you
bulld as llttle now as possible, lrhl ch neans you nlght have to bu11d agaln in
ten years, but you take sotne of that and put lt on Minnewashta, and sone of it
down here, naybe that ls the way to go. But you have to also educate the pub1lc
that 1n 10 years or I years, they have to bulld sone nore down here. Now, and
slnply aceept, that is a blg rtifn.
f donrt think you are expressing my thoughts. Maybe you rve got an ldea of
your own. My polnt was that learing out a fire departnent I thlnk ls going to
turn off a 1ot of people. f donrt think we want to have a city ha11 built up
on that end of town.
No, whet f a.rn saying ls, lf you, okay, lets say A. In thls referendun we
include a flre statton ln that area, Mlnnewashta. In I'flnnewashta the referendun
will include satelllte apperatus buildlng.
llhat klnd of bucks are we talking about there?
I thl:rk you can do lt for we11, $1201000, $1001000 or $1201000.
okay.
let me carry on.
Are you talldng about a satel1lte equL prnent building as separate frorn a
flre department?
No, it is the sarlle thlng. trtlre equlgnent building In Minnerashta. That
wor:ld be a part of the referendun, and also part of the referendun would be
a srnaller constructlon down here for clty he11, 1lbrary and Erbltc works. Tn
other words, you take the same arnount of do11ar3, lets $?001000. Xn Tt ls
$loorooo up here, -vou only build .$6001000 down here. Okay, there you are
satlsflflng both, ln the short range. Also He have the responslbillty to educate
the total commrnlty thet in ! to 10 years you rrlght have to go through the
-1t -
process agaln.
But you have 5 or 10 years to do the educatlon too.
So, your point ls weJ-1 taken, and I agree rith you.
out there ls educatlon on both sides.
Is the voter golng to say no to
I am only pointlng
C S E C }GgiING . V5/?9 ROUGH DR.AFT (TAPE 3 - SIDE A)
s3 well as an additlonel s12O for thet sateLlite, wlthcut ffear of lostng the
vote? Thls is nY thinking
Yes
That .t120r00o
Irlhat I s the tt woultt be on eech? Thatrs the thlng yourve
got to thlnk about, whether the people
There are three questions, what do we need? And 1 think you ere salring
sdne of the comunlty says I need thls, and the other part of theconununlty says
I need th&t. Uhat ls lt, in other words describe 1t to Ee. Telf ne uhat you
aregolngtobulld,andhorrlsltgolngtocostmeaSataxpalrcr?lrlhetherlt
is .b?OOrOOO here or S70Or0O0 spllt bet$een
r,.r.hat is 1t going to do for you? wtrat ls lt golng to do for rne, that I s
whattheyaregolngtosay.!,lhoneedsthellbrary,IlvegotExcelsiortwoml.les
away. 1,ihy shoulrtl drlve 7 nlles? Werve got peopl-b who shop 1n txcelslor, go to
thellbralTlnExcelslorandgetthetrmalllnExcelslor,andtheylookatthls
place as just a long useless trlp.
Your polnt ls stl11 we11 taken.
I an saylng, I donrt care, f rrr thlnk you could put on another til OO' 't150
or $2O0rOOO lf you told the people on that end of toun that you are golng to have
sone flre protectlon that 1s rithin drlvlng distance' I thlnk tt would be an
lmporLant thlng and you should be talking about lt'
That goes right back to the fact that you are only golng to get people to
vote for sonething that helps than.
Right, absolutely. f donrt thlnk, 1t nlght be rqf ovn Personal opinlon' but
I donrt thlnk that the dol-14r3 \roulr be qulte so lrnportant. lle all Just felt
left out of that Last thlng. We couldllrt see anythlng happening good for us'
I think you can educate the people that llve rlght here' that you all
realLy have a need out there. f dontt know how long lt takes the fire
departrnent to get out there,
We not only have a need, but we pay taxes'
Right, f donrt thlnk that would be a Proble'n, lt Ls educatlng the rest of
the city.
I guess the only concern end re talked about it e Uttle blt last tlne
was 1n order to staff 1t you would have to have volunteers' Jack nentloned
there are 2 or 3 guys that belong to the flre department out there' but lf you
halE a fire call and there 1s nobo{v around, I donrt knov how you would coordinate
the two to expect then to answer t'hen fl''e/H#dlJoHre departunent 13 here'
I thtnk you a13o sa1d, Jack, that Lt is hard to Berinvolunteers up there
because there are no facllltles, they have to corne all/way doun here. 1'/e do
-2-
have lr or 5 that could anshrer a statlon there. le lost one, he passed away,
but lf the statlon was bu1lt there lt woulrl have to bq_,acked up by this one
naturally. You would get more lnterest
Get more people ln a loca1 area who are lncllned to Joln.
)S earller statement was that I think they are all three separete lssues,
three buildings, fire department, whatever happens, and Jchn just rnentloned
that the people in his area use the E:<celsior library. So do we. If you tle
a Librery along rlth a city ha11 and Mlnnewashta resldents say lre donrt need
that beeause wetve got the D(celslor llbra:xr, f" /tb8lfic8 /tlfrls vote mrgirt
be defeated on that iszue, or would prtting the flre barn out there, would
that carry enough weight to pass everylhlng? I believe vhat f am trylng to
say ls, give everybody a llttle piece, 1s thet going to get the yes vote?
,,lhat we want to do ls come to a consensus so we can go on the ballot
wlth one issue, Just a yes or no. And 1f you vote for lt, yes, or not.
llot A, B or C. Irlf take A, you take B and you take C. You would really
nuddy the lssue there, but I thlnk that ve eaJl come to e consensus where we can
actua.l ly deronstrete and prove need. A llbrary ls neededr'a city hal1 is needed,
the publi c works facllity 1s needed. The flre barn le needed. Okay, but lets
go about it in a more reasonable wayrafter welve gone through a series of these
meetlngs, had a lot of input, werve got the rnenbers of thls conmlttee agreelng
as one person, klnd of a approach on thJ.s. Itre keep getting nore peop:l.e
sold on the process, sone of the movers and shakers u.Ithin the colrmunity, we can
go then to the po1Ls with that one issue and
f wholeheartedly agree, T do not Llke to see a11
No, that wou)-d never, you wouldr I t get anyLhing.
Can aryone suggest what the tax doI1a"s, the cost 1n tax dollars to the
indiyidual- homeowner rorlld be based on e $70or00o or $Bo0r0o0 investment?
Have we got the oId
At a nlll1on dollars, John, do you have arry ldea?
what we had before. l.ast on 1977 t we sald that again this
ts for $?50,0O0, we sa1.d lf your taxes sere SIZOo per year, they would lnerease
about $ho per yea!. Tf your ta*es were $1500, they would increase to $1r8.
This was on tX ii?5O,OOO?
Thatrs only sboul N"
n111 rate. That was Just the rufe of thunb that
lre used
Of cou"se our valr:atlon is golng up a)-1 the time too, so that la plcks up
sone of that
1
The staff sal's thet
look at sone of thls heavy constructlon that ls going to happen here ln
the next year or so. That ls going to add to your tax dof :l ar too.
lJefl", baek up a second. Agaln, I thlnk Don polnted out a key polnt.
i,Jhat are the dollars? Sonebody want to wrlte this dom?
$1"001000 for a apparatus lets say. Lets say $SOrOOO for land -
I donrt know what land would go for up there. You need about an acre.
Tou can buy sr acre ln nost areas for $301910.
l'Ihat can you buy an acre of land ln Minaer,'ashta for? $101000? S61000?
.N5rOOO, okay. Letrs say $101000 just to be safe.Oka;r, so lets say $1OrOO0 for
1and, $100r00O for a bul1dinry. Lets say you coFle dorn here and you bulld a
publlc works faclIlt;r, a 101000 sq. ft. publlc vorks facit.j t:'. That neans
a litt1e expansion space, and you wj-11 have to use the pub1l c works over
the existlng one over the next 10 years to a11ow thelr e{ransion need in the
interim. That 10r0o0 at $25 ls $210,000. okay, plus, that tril:l- take public
r.rorks 1'6q buy ! acres. Tou are going to expand the publl.c works faci1lftr -
the u1tlnate expanslon for public works r,rouldnft take nore than 5 seres. you
shoul.l buy it now, itts not gonna be any eheaper. you bu;r ! acres of lndustrlal
land down there, that would go for the $6rOOO. Okay, so lets say $lOrOOO an
acre there too. l,lore than that?
Right novr the I and ln fndustrlal Park , the land ln back ls 60d
per sq. ft. Itrs about .|2!.
Okay, thatrs .|L25r000. lle1l you could gc ln as 1ow as
That would be located ln such dlstrict.
Tf ve nant it ln an lndustrial area. It doesnrt have to be on a pri'ne
0ka:r, for the sake of thls
Prlme corners are a 11ttle bit hlgher. Cdte to thlnk of lt, there is
about dl3rOOO an acre assessment on that property.
For the sake of the exercLse here, l-ets say we can get I acres for $251000
an acre. Thatrs $75r0O0. IrIe I ve got the pubLlc works building plus the 1and.
Assuning you night want to buy rnore land ln the future. 'dhet do you want to do
do you want to expard the exlstLng one, or do you want to bulLd a new one?
lets say thet we expand the existlng one because the land is
okay, so we expand 151000 for that $600100O . .$60OrOOO to expand this
exlsting bu11d!.ng, lets say ue donrt finlsh the basernent, so thatrs STTOOO -
so thatrs $11601000. l,lhat r s the total of the three?
rrlhat can $e do for l,ll ck and A1 Kllngelhutz? The;'mlght need
-lr-
.iB?5,000 Jack.
ftrs under a nilllon.
Thatrs assu:llng $11601000 lnstead of $6001000
Wel1, thatr s not
The only falaey 1n that 1s that you are assrnd.ng tn contlnue to use the
existing publ-lc works feciuty for a whlIe, rlght?
Ye s.
Okay, anC fron an operatlng standpolnt thet nlght not work.
But remember tE, orlglnal preface. My reason for golng through the exarnpLe
is T ean predlct that lt eould work ln the next ! to 10 years. You ean nake it
work. Thatrs what T constder the botton probabllilr, that you malr not choose to
nake 1t work. Tou nay choose to add another 5r0O0, at another $12!1000 on to
pub) lc works.
Then they have thelr present facll.ity evailable for sa'le too then if thelr
rhC that. So ;rou would recover scme of that.
The real problen wlth - zl )l,O'D sq.ft., no you dortt use thls.
Thatrs for sale right off the bat.
You donrt use this, not ln thls ease. Yourve got 8!00 plus 5000
expanslon
The !Fr*}tt costs you eave rne though T thlnk ras based on 101000, not
t 5,o0o
Yes, Irm sorry, yourre rl.ght. ft rras 10rO0O. So at that point ;rcu bullC
another 5rO0O, that would be another $125r00O, for the sa.I(e of not heving to
bul1d an addition untll sonerrhere around 2000, betreen 1990 and 2f0n.
How blg ls the site orrt there?
The exl stlng site?
Tt canrt be over 2lI to I acres.
I thlnk it is an acre.
It cnrnes to the road there. About 1L aeres rnaybe.
,Irtst looking at lt, ltrs 2OO ft. deep ltnrt l.t along that road?
ft rrust be at least that. 20C ft. !r'ide, thet would be 601000 - an
acre encl a ha1f.
Okay, so lets say you get $10rOOO an acre for that lard?
Ttrs zoned residentlal out there, servlce area. No selrer an.!
r"rate:'.
0kay, i.f you glvlng a brrllding slgn on lt, ;rou get :;lor000 fcr Lt.
Alright, so anl,way, lf lt j-s ril0rOOO an acre, lt is only 830r00O,
whatever yorr get for lt lt ls a nlnor amount of money cornpareri to the tota.l-.
So, w'i th that opti.on there 1s iB95r0O0. On top of that you vroul.d put bondlng
cost fees, and that type of thlng, so you ale probablS' up to ills5OrooO,
fi9jnrO4O -sonewhere arourd ln there. The cost ls just not the
buil-dint, it 1s the fees, the bond cost to sel-I, bonds and aI that.
Are :/our ecsts todeys costs or lfovenber eosts when the contraet
ln Decenber?
1'le1!, costs are going up '11 per nonth, so T xould say based on how 1oos.!y
T pu1 these together,
If T dtdnrt Elve ;.611 any nunbers, vhe r^e would T be? out the docr.
If T nake then too high, where woul-d f be, out the door. So f have tc takc
p rl sk.
expanding the city ha11, snd you are looking at a figre of
sonewhere close to $90or00o.
Oka;r, and the oely reason for expandlng the clty hall is that if that
industrial Lend costs ,25 rA)O, Hhat i: 1t goln3 tc cost r13rt ':'o,rrri
dol:: tcm?
lanre llct'-:+" .
5o, the reason for doing that is to not have to buy 1anC. This has
the least cost if buy Land. You bul1d the sane 15100.
This is you could also not finlsh the basenent. That bulLdJ.ng
in a 1or000 is as 1ow as you ean go. It only gives you 2 or 3 years expnnslon.
At the same tlrne, the;r got L800 sq. ft. now. Werve got twlce as much there,
sor
and they got school take a shower or take
l drlnk out of the faucet, 1f they l'rere up there you sl.tti.ng tr;'
on top of the celllng over the l.lttle office they got, anri that ls thelr
',{.ter suppLy.
Lets baek up and ask Just a general question. )Ie have descdbed the
conce.rt that bui.lds an apparatus flre departnent struetlre and L an'r {-n
r,11nner.\,e-shta. l'ie expand the exlstlng facllity, the cttv hall and -r-lbrar:', t're
bu;. land 1n the industrlal park for ;ub1lc !,rorks bu11din8, and $l1 +"h enollXl)
area to expand tt. Now, f a:n a nut ebout a].$alrs t:t/inq to fct t. a potnt, and
t,he point ls, does that seen to be a resolution to the genera.l 'llscusslcn that
we have talked about ? or 1s or does that stil1 have sole najor f-l "r''ts?
You can reduce that to +.hree lss.res, realIy, lf you cornbine the expalslon
of the eurrent cit;r ha11 wltl-" the l1brary, right?
That is ccnbined,
Yes, so that 1s one.
That expanslon space, does that a.lso al1ow the sltuatlon 1f we had ta
have loom for pollce wlthtn the next :,'ear? llouLd that also be the basenent
-6-
'res, in other r\'ord s, r-f the basement, 1f you need a pl ace i.n tr''o ;
then vou can, but you got to find siraee for cit:/ halr ard r i-brati' soneuh
else {-n the closer future. i.lhat tha+. naans ls buildlng 3 bu'.ldln:s, in trrr
locatlons, to satlsfy the constltuant of the conurunr. t l/ r and i-t is t90Or00o
to .;95orooo.
T '*onder then too, the nunber T llroted yo'l ear'ller ?bout
the $lr0 for 1200 lncluded both lssues, the referendun for the police was
t185rcoo was the estlnated cosl for that, and $79r r0oo whlch rras the estlms'ted
cost for the bulIdlng, so if we iu:;t went ralth the lssue, the totar packege
l.ras $975ro00. Nou you are talkln: a.bout a totaL peckage for Just the bull-ding
of ll950,0oo
That lncludes land
That lneludes everllthlng he 'i-s talklng about, t96crno0, okav so it
ine.lu^es everyLhlng, and the yni.r levy then would be 2.2 ynirl s, okay, trhleh
instea,l of ll0 is golng to cost you j8. [2 lf you have taxes of about illr(O,
it cost: you .NIr2 lnerease. Tf ;rou h:.l'e ter<e s of about $17oo !t ls going to eost
;rou about 5[?
That 1s based on 1977 tax bP.se
That ls besed on 1978 tax base. Whlch had a reduetlcn fron 'I97?.
R.v 1980 or 81, thet lrould beccme 80 rlhen lt wottl d be on the ta:r ro'!1
^:osslbl;r, that vould be, the valuablon could go up by qulte a fev dollars.
Lets take 1cn ner homes 1n 1978 whj. ch L'111 be on the tax ro11s next year,
and figure on that $5oroo0, 1s ,t6r0oor0o0.
Llke f said, qulte a few rnillions of dolLars
Donrt forget, the school board goes up, ground costs go u.D,
Last year you got a D?8 deerease per average on taxes, a-nd this ]'ear
they are antleipatlng $80 tecause of what T nentloned. fnctease ln new starts
and
Thatrs a good ansner to +,he question. The questlon T just ralsed i-s stir'l
going to be ralsed, but
That ls a decrease for the colmty and for the r:chool and for the whole
dea1, so tha+"
Bven for the clty, frnrndatLon for this one i's Jrrst atrout paid rrp
noll.
r,et ne ask another question, we talked about Mlnne!'ashte. T'wo
ls the sehool Issue. rr'lhat does anybody think ebout
this? Is thet golng to hurt us?
You mean the l'llnnewashte
-?-
l'h:.t 1s thelr dete? tsrlng us up to date on i-t.
Se otenber scrrethlng
Thev haventt real1l/ set a deflnlte date. They are ta1klng aborrt
in September, and they werenrt sure of the fLgure. T think lt yras something
flke $70r)r000.
Is that an addltion to the one on lrl?
llo, 1t is not a construetlon issue, 1t 1s rnainly to keep ex! sting
prograins. They are l.n a cnrnch also on mi1 levy lncrease, a6d sc everythinq
is qoinq up, ccsts ere going up, and i+, 1s either go for an adriitlonal .i7O0,0OO
or' I:" off peopl.e and plograjTls.
"tust the regula" o?erettng bndzet, not capi.tal?
Have we considercd the additi rnal revenue that ts golng to be generated
fron the industrlal park? There has to be scmething there, right?
Tt will be conlng 100 neu homes
Sone of it 1s golng to cone in on ta* rncrenent flnanclng, so it uont be added
to the ryenera)_ tax I evy for n few years.
Tes, bnt these dorm here wt_l.l be, Iike Iynans and
tax incrernent,.
Yes, the-y ni l! lt be added to 1t
and IfIS wont be in that.
Those are 1n a dlfferent county, arent they?
Tt ls stlll Chanhasser. taxes
a tax on thls part, tax on a ner.r bul ldlng
Is that going to have sone affect on the indlvidual ho,ne_
Otrmer?
rt !d11. ral se the tota-r valuation of the ,nunlci pa1{-t-1' and qhieh wrt'l
lenerally 1ower, for the same amount of doI]_ars, you wl:l l have 1_s5s rni 1 1er4,
you wi),1 probab!:, be able t,o generate the sane amount cf rio1.t ars
at l-1 mills. So over all each hone should be 1ess.
So in theor' lorllrl ^*. ::r'i-l;;a+"n ,hex lhe t.rx, i, -.r^r,.seJ r:.r:rr"-e
t,,rc ja..": i,,,a in r?qr 3r, ,.11i-.,.,,-1, fh,r:. j-n theor,, ol" ln f?Ct njell r-,3 16
-r"e1'"e:" +hrn '..lat +"he;r r,re tr,i.:...
li.s, ycu couI.l assrtxo that.
T q.less T r.rou_t d hate lo r-ro_'ni 5e people that.
licur 1l-r'stia: .^st- :.:i l'r
r:t thcr,t-,. t'au ".n_rd I thjrL, but J v:autd-!rt ry^ out f,n - -r jTf. t.: ,r that.
'-.'t 6I:1.r 'q .rear- rro.
o
Tl rs]usl llke, we1',':ia-t\ra fot n hj3 i1'lrlstr-, 'r'r 2 vears fron nr:;
it's tarklng:,bor)t lutt,inr r1. a lforAon s1. fi. hxi r4i'rg ln Chanh"::er.
'lhn L hui''1i:^ i:rt t bu1lt yel.
llr.c'.. to Jor.nrs luest.i^:, r.rh at -.ernpntaqe of our Or.anhrsen 3o.u1at.irn
1i1.n5 1.y:-t li r
't" r'rorr'l ,-l sxlJ et leest I /3, sorer.'here hetiieen 1 / j rl,d t ,/? .
'1'Ire divi.'ling line is r"itht doL*l lor:., and it goes 713r.f slyli-r;'ri. 111+.
ir..dnr.'o^.r Shlres I thi nk
-l know at'ont where the distrlet 1lnes are,
l/3 cf i"he ai:ea i1 Chanhassen, but I
it r.rouLdnt t be vhere it ls densel;' po)u'l?ted :rea in here, T think the:r r,totrlC
ha.,'e rrore 1\a.n \/3 of the popul ation because 1t 1s more dense u; thera than
dor'nn snuth.
Another questlon f have Is the publ-lc works locatlon. vou ere talklns (
acre!, you are talking $1t0rn40 for property, and the naximrrn
Tf lt goes ln the lndustrlal park
Yes, thatrs a 1ot of money, end it ls a tot of 'noney that ls acttial1y
taken off the tax rol1s too.
Especlal l;'
You normally dontt want to put anl' -:ubr lc faclllties ln a tax lncrenent
Ts there a poss1blllty the p:bJ 1c lrorks bullding coulC be noved to I
different I ocation and not
T thlnk b3sed on l.rhat .r.re are tryinr to do tonl3ht, En'l based on how rmch
t\e l,1nd i.s, I thlnk we should look at arother speclfic si+,e
in the genoral area, that rdght sti1l. nake sense.
I talked to Mr. D,rnn who owns that, and he said the going pl"ice right now
cn the Land ln back w111 be (tld per sq. ft,. He feels at the rresert tine
lookin; at the assessnents on it, there ls about S12roa0 goinr to be in
selrer, lrater and street assessnents, plus an:v bullding golnq crn there J.s
gcing to generate accordlng tc the perk ordinance aborrt $1rooo in park
assessnert,s on eaeh acre.
That hasnrt been approved 1ret, but he feeLs there ls goinz t.o b rtottt
i13rno0 1n assessrents on each aere of that 1and, and he foer s he has to have
$l2r0oo an acre before tho assessnents, sc that ls .I25r000 a:, acr6.
r^leJl, that quarter when we looked at the I ocatj.on of an industrial
or public uolks fae1llty, that had a loL to do with thls road e"nnectins
\n
\
-g-
the south east-west connectors and 5 thls wey. In other words, fron any
locatlon ln here, you can get to the future south, or to the exlstlng and
expandlng north. ff you put it north of thls roed, you are gettlng into the
prlme resfidentlal grorbh area. If you put it enJrwhere adJacent to the road and
south all the vay down, obrlously if ycu get dorn lnto here you are not
centrally located, and - fn other words, this area rlght here on both sides
would be rffi a possibillty. Tf you want to get out of the lndustrtal
district. Now, the road and the brldge I thlnk go frorn here to herre.
Hor far donn does the lndustrial. area go, A1?
DoHn.l-o1
Yes
Lake on thls side, and a llttIe bit bet'ond the lake. ft takes ln part of the
farrn on thj s end.
Yourve got water down there, you are lncluded.
Irve got sewer, but no water.
t/ater ,,rou]dn t t be the greatest probl en in the worLd.
For a pub1lc works faejll.t;. I think
You coulC even put e weLl in and lt r.ouldnrt be the toughest thlng in
the world. It would add to the cost, but lt certalnly wouldrrrt be
Both as an lnterim use f have both the well and a septlc systen approved.
If the eity aewer is dovn ln that area, water could be gotten, because
the r-and would be so rmrch cheaper at that particular tlne than, you could rnore
than bu;' the \,rcIl for the difference in the cost of the land.
Anyral', any where frorn here to here and frorn here to here, based on
access, and f thlnk, I speclf5.ca11y say that to me this area right in here is
the best place for a publlc r.rorks faciflt:r.
E Thatts what Trve been thinking
Should I make that a 1itt1e blt blgger
Thatr s cheaper than $2!,000
I guess so.
I'laybe today but tomorrow
Better get the slte before the buildlng.
Maybe the slte can be donsted.
ftrs 10:25 now, Irve gotten a lot out of this neetjng. Tf there is
anylhing else anyone wants to dlscuss, we thlnk that these tlpes of meetings
throwlng thlngs out, bounding it back and fourth, 1s r hat is going to be
productlve out of the next month and a ha1,f. You canrt do thj.s at a hear"lnq.
It has to be done before you for':"m1ate the pIans. ',,ie have done not, a 180, but
we have certainly have hlt a curve in the road frorn the last tlme.
The point ls to get sonething to happen ls servlee to the comm:nlty.
o-_1
lle arenrt roedy to ne]ce a presentetlon to soirebody ltke the Chanhasser
Chanber of Cam.rce 8t thelr next rnonth\r rneetlng t ld.ch '.{oul d tre the lrth
Tuesday thi s nonth.
lJe11, I think x! ought to have more of a forned plan.
Do You think ./1'ou can?
Yes, you should only form + plan lf tr'611t o. got s':ffte1 ent lnput.
TonLiht rerve gotten a Iot nore, but rerve 3t1n got the survey to take, based
on t hethor of not ue nant to take lt. Thare ls 10 - 12 of you fron the
corrmrnlty hele toDlght. I thlnk that, a couple of naetlngs nore l.lke thls
or soneone mentloned , the fellor.I wtro 1efL, a neetlng rlth hls ecmnrnlty
group. The others of you who represent cemnunlty grouPo, are there arqr
neetlngs can:l.ng upJ
Carser Beach ls plannlng a meeting rnost 1lke\r Aprl1 26. Ue rr111
Iet "vou t lonow for fllre on the sehedu]lng of that neeting. We rould also
appreelate
Chanttassen Estatce would be late U3y
Greenwood Shores, ne havenrt se+. a datr yet, brt tt would be falrly
soon.
These raeetlngs are f guess, Ye are Lookln P at 3 di fferent klnds of
thlngs here. A1 la talklng about a presentatlon. I think that rould be
a llttle prematurc, E ve are talldng about neetlng to get lnErt. ft
seers to nre that uould be alrlght. I thlnk ve are talldn r1 about a meeting
to show thern fihet werve got, and ask for approval. f thlnk that ls ldnd of
prernature.
f eould see a 11ttle blt of both, rlth each neetlng r,e could throw
sornethlng out, rrlth the ful1 understandlrg that lt 1s for dlscussl.on
purposes. In other xords, we tel.ked about, th13 cotrdtlttee net last tLrne and
had sone thoughts, that eentered around D. Tonlght ne hEve ex.randed that and
changed lt and edded a llttle blt of C ln here. ff the ccrmlttee as lt
dlgcusses Eodong ltself sterts seelng 2 optlons, ire een talk abort 2 optlons
and aBk for lnput on those tno optt ons.
Tou rnay be able towork sqnethlng out of two of therl too. I nean
Yes, $erve gone a long ray tonlght. T thlnk rle shoul! d make some
presentation brut ask for tnput on rftst we presented, and alvays other
optlons 11ke tonlght. No. 5 has been the tonlght. Another option'
f see no reasdt rhy this presentatlon 11ke th13 or a dlseusslon lrke
thls should not be done wlth the next Chaniber of Corylllleree neettng. I
thlnk thet lt rould be good to have the tnput frm thetn.
The only thlng I ras thlnldng about at somethlng Llke the chamber
neettng 1f lt ls a rneetlng sit'd1ar to thts, lt gets so late
-11-
Torlght $es our ftrat eormuntty neetlng. I thlnk both Don and f
felt we should go through e lot, bu+" now f thlnk subsequent rneeti ngs rrrld
pursuant rlth the connltteeI s polnt of vlew, Lt could be narrolred.
I thlnk lf you narrowed lt dorn, then lt roulC be of more value there.
I thlnk lre have already narrowed lt dolrn pretty rmeh to two
and I donrt thlnk you rant to go to any klnd of fonnal Sresentatlon, but
as Berrd e saLd, e an lnprt, a fact flndlng ld3gton, a sone braln storrrrdng
sesslon 1r gleet.
I thtnk we are st1]] 1n an lnput phase, because $€ can slnply say, th{s
ls what ve think the proJected populatlon ls going to be
:-
C S F C IGjilII,IIC I!/'/79 .IOUGH Dil.FT (TAFE 3 SIDE B)
of hov rYe Bht solve thet. You could do that ln 2O or 25 minutes, and
then have 3ll rnlrrutes of dlscusslon, but f as$ le rrost of these ehantbcr
thlngs have other thlngs on the agenda' Plus they go over
So an hour and a half at the rnost.
Dead1lnc, then yourve got 15 or 20 mlt te3 to eat, and so I thlnk an
hourlsa].lBehave,andrthlnl<ltwouldhelpustofocrrstoanhor[on
one thing.
Addltlonallyr Jaekr re nlght have another one of these nleetings under
ourbeltbythetlnethechanber,neetlngcolesarormd..yJernostllkelyrtll.
Let ne thror thet questlon out. Tonlght werve had a verTr strong
sa:np1e. I see 3 or Ir corrrTunl t:r groups end peoplo frtrrr the buslness
ec,r,,om:n1ty. Elre departnent. Are there eny other grorrps that you thlnk
we ehould be rneetlng lrlth that rerenlt rcpresented here tonight?
onethlngthathaserossednrynl.ndilrdandespeclallylnthepresentation
to the coltmmlty, 1a perhaps se11lng the questlon of the need' I would 1lke
to hear fron the flre departrnent and eech butldlng th4t wa are proposlng
frorn an off,lclal rrlthln. Holt they feel about lt'
f have no ld€e. The flre departrnent nlght be too btg nor' f real1y have
no ldea and f donrt thJ nk that many ln our conrunity does knov'
Thatrs e vcqy good Potnt.
And a tour of the faellJtles.
Perh8ps et the ccttrmnlty presentatlon, a nantber of each eould go
through your 113t of 3 thlngs, the need, the two 'pttons end whlch they
prefer snd the proJccted cost of each, how that affects then ln terrns of
thelr or..rr tax doIlars.
I thlr* ln terms of the proJeeted costs, the 199^ eost should be
proJectedsoy(4rarenothld!.nqenythlngfremtharrlnthedeclslonthey
make for 1980. The proJected popuLatlon
but at least they s€e that they nlght be
ProJeeted land costs - the '3osslbtIlty of harrlng a pleee of land
If ne were to do thls, rlght here, D ls the one that had future
eost s. Thls one rea11y doesnrt.
Dccept that yourve got to tnry anough land for expenslon
But shat T am Eaylng ls rtrat do you do 1n 1980? Youtre not goinE to
backflre on you 10 years later and say, hey f dlilnrt lmolr we had to do
Lhat rflrch nore. That ls thP basls of the eanplalnt about !l' Torrrl'e got
to bulld a clty he11 in 1990, rhy do you optlon to do it now?
Thls one, except for the land on publJ c rorks, does not ear:T' a 1ot of
those effects for 1990' The rnaln boornerang effect ls the I tbrati"
-2-
There agaln, that 1s not, the great rnove lg to mo,e lnto one feclllty,
and you utlllzc thet spaee for
The othcr thlng that re should polnt ort, 41, ls thc pollce. Tttat the
cause of 1.990
Agaln, trylng to 11ndt the number of thlnge we dea:! v1th. lle orlgi na11.y
started out not deallng rlth the ;ollee. We shoul.d Just 1lke tle should deal
trlth the satel11te, and at that poi.nt *rg shouId be able to exp.l ain
that rlth the posolblltty of a seeond floor on the bulldlng,
but re can, and I'lth the 'rnflnlshe,l basarrcnt, that should cause two thlngs.
?hat corld cause the llbrary thing to heppen ln 1990 lnstcad of 20fi), or lt
eould cause, lf rr ddrlt vent, that to happen, we eer take that sarne sq. footege
and add lt to a second floor of the elty ha1l for po1lee. So se st11:!.
nelrow dowr as far eg frture bosrer8ng effcct, of fi:ture costs wh:l ch are
going to go 5 to 12* a ycar.
those flgures T thlnk would tre good to see. If doesnrt. g.r
tn L980 and re have to ccrne ln l.n 85 or !O, to oM.ously bulltd the but,r,ding,
at sGne poi.nt thcn thsy arc golng to have to eonc.
l,Jhat are the eosts going to be for 198r?
}{ell , thetrs golng to . Iou knor, can ree etand \m a velr?
You canrt. At scmc polnt ln tlrne someth{ng ls golng to happcn.
even over bul.1d a llttle btt at this partleular tlne
thsJr et these coats
The thlng that bothcrs ne
There ls another thlng, f kaow T have talked to a lot of people and
the:, lcror that we have 3500 sq.fL. quasl-scfld ormed et least tn St. Itubertt s
basonent. PeopLe alc golng to ask, hav€ you consldered lt, artd rhat are you
golng to do rdth lt? Beve you ruled lt ort? I laror, I have been asked
rnarIy rnar5r tfuneo. lr00 sq. ft. of r:nflnl shed basarrent.
Is there any parldng there?
No
The po}lce departenent uslng that spece - aqrthlng uslng lt needs
parldng of scnre Bort.
Is 1t posslble the upstalra
W6L1, fle arc dor,n, rlght no sinee rarve bcen ln thls bulLdhg, we are
dorm to one offlce. The f,lre departrnent doesnlt have a trainlng roon or sny
offi ce.
-J-
Even for a bustncca neetLng lte heve to take thc equlpnent out.
The gentleoan tchlnd .ne asked a queatlon before about a sate11lte
statlon/HdrtBt"t of equipplng lt. Would yor llke that eost avallabl.e?
Yes.
fg that a csni statlon under the porrcr flne that Eden Pralrle Just
bu11t? Thet ls typlcally r.hat we are talldng about?
Not that close to thl s one though.
That type of a bulldlng?
APPIe Va11etr'
You donrt feel that we need addltlonal equi pncnt rlght et the present
tlne? If Ye hed a satcllite statlon?
Not to nan the aatc11lte stetlon, but lf you, not for that purpose,
no
If the town develops a 6 story hotel or sdnethLng llke thei, yo'r
l,lhat A1 ls saylng, you wou'ldnrt have to tluplleate scrne of thls equlpment
to put out therc. Iou nlght want to irovc one of these out there, ald at a
future date, lthet you sald, a I adder tmck or you nl ght, need
then you t ould use 1t ln thle faclllty probably, or r,herever the need
night be. Thcre rdght be a second satell-lte by that tlne.
I thotght
Nobody telked about A or il
Lets look et C here. f thlnk C a&ne category rlth A, and lf you
Look at c, l$or 25ot ?10, plus 2 parcels of Iand,
talklng about
opportulty for more Parklng
dorrt you thlnk you mlght be able to break up soNro of that?
We roally donrt Istow yet, the clty bought the road iJroperty 1n the
nelghborhood of $1Or00O an aere.
llox, slncc the an lnporLant In each of the tlrree
lrhen you present these egaln, B, C and D, ln each optlon should be
lsolate the cost for the 3ate111te aPperatus faclLtt-Y 1n l'lLnnewashta.
r,'Ie talked ebout not I thtngs, ltbra:?, lubllc rorks and el t-v half ile tar ked
about lr thlngs - the fourth polnt ls appatetus bulLdtng.
-L-
Size - The other thlng we have lnferr€d lt ln any of these eosts is the
houses peoplc. I assume iou can do thet over and then
annual b,udget basle and neke lt work. fs that the {a:, rre want to do lt,
lf you donrt put 1n eny slgnlfieant artomt of noney
talld.ng about noney, fixtures ls a llne ltam as uel] as bulldlng
costs end 1and. Hor do you uant to deal vlth that stren lie talk about
numberB?
In the 11br8ry aepect, the firrtrtture &nd fllxtu"es portlon
because we do have sone
Nov yourve got tro opttons, pub11c ror*s and elty ha11, the
money ln these nunbers rrt fumlture, flxture s and equr Fle:1t, or
say that you 1111 get the bull dlng and then &rfiua1Ly add out of anntlal
operatlng eosts your ftrttlture, ftrtures and equipnent.
I donrt thlrik you have an optlon there, Jack. You ar€ lealIl'
talldng about furrrtturc, etc. lf you are golng to
put 1t In. You are golng to have to put sone portlon of that lnto
The publ1c vorks bulldlng, that couLd be a b1g ltat too'
Pub1lc wo:'ks, you $ouIdn I t lnclude equi pnent necessarlly.
e 1ltt1e ?lghi now it Ls e real Problefi
I arn not saylng you shouldnr t. T enr Juot saylng thet for the publlc
xorks buLldlng thst could be $2Or0O0 to $3Or@0 for the baslc equlprrent that
*chould go 1n. l{e are tallc!-ng about I IOrOOO sq. fb. publlc }torks buildtnp
tellcln8 abort $25O,OOO. f thlnk that ls another 20 ot 29'
But lf you get a bulldlng that you catrrt use
I knfi, okay.
Ttrs:r are golng to rant a holst. That should bc put 1n rhen the
butlding ts bu11t, beeause lt ls
publl c works bullillng, rhcn you start novlno eqrrlpnent
llke that you elthcr have to buy ne? stuff ol the cost 1s out of ltne to
nove those thlngs
IH'lllvorkrlththestafftoflndoutrhatspeolflclternstheyhav"
ancl what they donrt have, and then those Y111 be lncluded tn the rnnnber and
we wllL say the lrullding plus needed 1n1+'1af equl.Flent and t!'xtures ls 1n
the nunber.
-r*-^^r -4.
-.)-
Can you save $dte e blt on lnltlal constnrctlon eosts b going to
sone of these nev offlce nrodu]es where you hevr a val1, a partltion, a
noveble parLltlon, hanE a sork serrlce on lt, dtawers and aLL that ldnd of
stuff, :'elatlve to puttlng a wa1I up, and lf you want to ehange lt, you have
to take the m11 dom
Open landscaplng
ff you nove Jrour roons around a 1ot you can seve ltoney. ff you donrt
nove your xal-1s arourd a 1ot, no. Tf you have a large nrmber cf offices
if you ha''re a large offlce space Ilke 10 or 15r0OO sq. ft. of offlce space,
weI1, that ls a rery lnvolved questlon. fnltia}ly you woul.d sa;r yes, lrou
would be able to save money. I,rel1, nall only eosts yort about $2.15
per sq. ft. to put up. If you put up 2 or 3 of then and you ean elose en
office. ffplca11y ln a clty hc11 thls slze, the anslrer ls no. You can
bui1d, you are not novlng the wa11 and the roclas very rmeh and you donrt
have enough of them beeause those ftrr lture and flxturc s that you are talkln5
about are expcnslve. Hore erpenslve than puttlng up a chlpboerd wa:l-:!.
Provlded you.pLan the space properly to begln rith. hovlded the
clty ha11 Is golng to stay on the same place.
ff yorr where you nove elty hal1 out, that nlght rnake a 1ot of
sense. Then yor heve to tear out any wa]ls.
Tf we go for C there and put clty he1l Ln there, and then in order to
nake the portion that l,as clty ha11 lnto a pub1lc vorks bul1dlng, you would
have to tear out all the rlal1s agaln. Then you donrt have celllngs
elther, bccause Jrou are worklng prb1le works bulldlng for a elty
haII and then you have to lower the cel1lngs to get lt back to the vay
Walt a second, 1n a publlc works facl1lty rtiere you are lets say a
bloek bu11dln8, rrlth a 9 ft. offlee ee11lnE, Your?e gol 2 to 3 ft. above
that of Jolst, space yhere you are . We trensfer 1t over
to pubL1e works. You do have sone offiee space and that klnd of thlng that
you cou'l d use sorc of lt for. thet you bu1lt lnltta11;r would he
expanded. Once you r"l.p out the cel1lng then you are up to 10, 11, ,r.2 ft.
10 or 11 ft. of clear space. That works great for shops, storage, 1t doesntt
r'rork great for vehlcle storage. f thtnk that ls the only case you eouldnrt
use ihe space for, ls "ehlcle storage. But al1 the other shops and al1 the
other miscellaneoua space lt wouLd lrork flne, and thst !.s Just exectly
the problem that m nent through at Maolcrrood. It ls on the slde of a htl l,
It ls tlfo storles ln one area, and one story ln another area. The rrpper f1661
1s office nou, lt rl11 be shops an,:l storage at a later date, and ',ve ehecked
the helght pnd horr lt Eould fLt tn there. Thatrs how T can feel Justlfled
saylng that you canrt tear out the ctty haIl and h ave gufflclent helght aad
C.
-6-
rootl to l.ork for e good nunber of the ftrctlons that ar€ tn a publlc rorks
buildlng.
A pubue xork8 bulld1ng ea.n be t rl1t tnto the slde h111 4nd heve two
floors on 1t, rrlth entrance va;'fs
Thatts rlEht.
You rorld be saving sone on land then.
Although 1t beecmes, the blg trulk of a pub1le works faelllty
ls your overheul repair bays that need the fu11 helght. Thqv need the 18 ft.
approxirnatel"y to holst the tmeks up. L8 to 20 fb. That fu11 helght you
need. You could use, the way Uaplewood sorks J.!, lt ls 2 storles for h0 ft.
x 2o0 and sorc odd !eet. It ls 2 floors. We took out sonre of that floor
and that 1s the repa!.r hays. And then we hav. 25r0OO sq. ft. of
vehlcle storage, only sbout 1Or0OO sq. ft. of oftlce and shops 3nd nalntenance
an^ repalr bays. lrhat f arn saylng ls, only ebout 36 of a publlc rorks
faclllty eould go lorrer floor height, so )'ou heve 750O on one ffoor anC
750O on thE other, lt world not uork very reI).. You donrt need that mrch
seconLl storXr space !.n a public r,rorks faelI1ty, tplca1ly.
nk.1y
'de havan t t iaade any detlnlte declslons, but we sure openeC up 1 lot,
of mlnds.
I want to thank eveq'bo(y for eodng. f sure formd thl s to he an
exce1lent neet{.ng. I think the turn out
No nssty lrords or anlthlng.
Thank you for conlng.
One questian f lres golng to ask yet, I\r"11 rcpresentation
her^ no,
t.Ie have one other i+.e::?e-a?onse frcm the last neetlng
using it md dolng !2656ns1r1-;' ve11
Comrnuni ty
S e ptembe r Facilities19, r9'19
Study Committee
A regular meeting of the Corununity facilities Study Committee was calLedto order at 7:30 p.m. by Chairman PauI O'DefI with members NickWaritz and Jack Kreger present. Additionally, Lois F.iskness of theCarver County Library Board, Jack Boarman of Boarman Architects, andMark Koegler of City Staff were present.
Referendum Ba11ot Wordin s
The City Planner informed the committee that the Assistant City Attorneyhad recently offered an opinion regarding the wording of the Novemberbal-}ot. After consulting with bond counsel, the attorney stated thatit appeared that the November ba1Iot will have to contain three specificquestions, one regarding each of the facilities proposed. ft wasoriginally intended that the ballot would contain one question which
woufd be comprehensive in nature and would include a1I three proposedfacil-ities. The committee then held discussion on the impact thata ballot with three separate questj-ons would have on the referendumissue. The members expressed concern that such wording would geographi-caIly divide the community permitting voters in specific areas to votefor projects of interest only to them thereby possibly having a negativeimpact on the overalL effort. Jack Boarman pointed out tlvo examplesv,/hich do not seem to be consistent with the attorney's ruling. Inrecent referendum issues, the Cities of Brooklyn Center and Apple Valley
have had questions on the bal1ot vrhich contained more than one proposedfacilj,ty on more than one proposed site. Staff and the attorneyrsoffice is requested to pursue this matter further and report backat the next meeting.
Site P l-an Review
Jack Boarman presented site plans for each of the proposed facilities.
The city ha11/library site as illustrated was on the property boundedby existing city ha1I site to the north, the existing post Officeproperty to the east, Chanhassen State Bank and Schneider Agencyproperties to the south, and Kerber Drive to the west. This sitecontains approximately I11,000 square feet or 2.5 acres. The buildingis to be a two story structure with the city halI occupying the upperIevel and the library occupying the lower l-eve1 which has window
exposure and walkout capabilities on the south side. The parking lotwas proposed as two lots which were terraced roughly in the centerof the site accommodating a total capacity of 60 cars with expansionspace for additional parking as required. The site as illustratedis also adequate to accommodate future building expansion. On thenorth side of the city ha]1, Chan View, which runs on the northern sideof the Post Office was shown as being extended from itrs present
western terminous to new Kerber Drive. In reviewing the proposal,the comrnittee and staff made the following comments:
That the site as shor^rn was stil1 somewhat hypotheticalin nature because at the present time it has yet to bedetermined which portions of the Schneider Agency propertymight be divided off for the city hall- site.
l
Page 2
There was concern expressed about continuing Chan View
westerly across the entire site and the traffic
volumes that might be accommodated by such a route.It was the general opinion that traffic consideration
should be given a high priority since the proposed cityhall is adjacent to the cityrs recreationaf fields andthe library wj-f1 attract users from the elementary school
which is separated from the library by the proposed
access drive or street.
The satellite fire station as iLl-ustrated by the architect was merely
a hypothetical site layout since no specific site has been selectedat the present time. It did however, illustrate the type of facility
which is envisioned for construction in the Minnewashta area. Thebuilding is to consist of a two bay apparatus area, accompanying storagespace, meeting facilities, and the required parking area.
The public works facility shown on the site plan is located at thesoutheast corner of the intersection of Highway 17 and Park Road in the
Chanhassen Lakes Business Park. The proposed building has been indicatedas a one story structure which totals 151000 square feet in area.Additional inclusions on the site plan are parking spaces for public
and employee use, future expansion space for the building, and ayard storage area on Lhe southern portion of the property. The overallsize of the proposed public works site is 4.1 acres.
Cost Proj ections
Jack Boarman reviewed general cost projections for each of the threefacilities with the committee. He prefaced his remarks by statingthat construction costs for this year appear as though they will
represent an increase of approximately 13 to 14?. This figure compareswith last years increase whj.ch was 108 and the increase drrring
1976 which was approximately 7t. He also added that 10t of the totalcost of each buifding should be additionally al-located to accommodatefurnishings. The cost of the total referendum for three proposedfacilities at the square footages indicated on the site plan has been
estimated at $I,983,000. This sum includes building costs, 1and, legalfees and architectural fees. Additionally, approximately $60,000 has
been added to the budget to permit the purchase of a new pr.rmpe r for the
Minnewashta satellite fire station. After reviewing this cost figure
and expressing concern over the total amount, the committee discussed
ways in which defetions could be made to the proposed referendum packagein order to reduce the total cost. One consideration discussed wasto cut the city ha11 and public works buildings from 15,000 to 12,000
square feet and to reduce the Minnewashta fire station from approximately
5,000 square feet down to 3,500 square feet. ft was the opinion of the
committee that these reduction s in total square footage area would not
significantly impact the city services to be provided by each of thethree new proposed facilities. It should in most cases however, mean
2
3. The coruni ttee felt that the proposed site which abuts
the existing city hal-1 and recreation property to the north
was an optimum arrangement for both existing uses andpotentiaf future expansion.
Page 3
that construction of additional expansion area may have to take place
sooner than originally anticipated. In reviewing the referendum amountin light of these building area reductions, it appears as though theprice of all three facilities could be reduced to $1,672,000. The
comrnittee requested that staff and the project architect review bothanticipated building and site needs and report back at the next meetj.ng.
In discussing the total cost of the referendum package, Paul OrDe11stated that he felt that the most significant cost figures would be
those which showed the impact the referendum would have upon taxationwithin the city. Staff responded that although preliminary taxationestimates had been made, a closer examination of those figures wouldbe occurring hrithin the next week.
Promotional Strategy
The committee moved into a discussion of promotional strategy which
centered upon the list of neighborhood captains that was identifiedat the previous meeting. Staff reported that approxj.mately half ofthe individuals had been contacted and that in almost every case,they expressed a willingness to assist in the referendum effort.
The cornmittee and staff agreed that it would be necessary to conduct
a meeting within the next one to two week period in order to acquaint
these individuals $rith the referendum effort and with what role they
would be expected to p1ay. A tentative meeting date of October 4,
1979, was established for this purpose. The next meeting of the
Cofiununity Facility Study Committee was set for Wednesday, October 3,
1979 , at 7:30 p.m.
The meeting was adjourned at l-0:05 p.m.
I,lark
City
Koeg 1e r
P L anner